Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️

[ekim]

I can't speak for other theists but for me the existence or not of god is really low down on my list of priorities in assessing religion because faith provides me with something that knowledge does not. It's not something that is based on logic, where you can examine it and determine what is right or wrong - I don't see any formula to be applied so it's not really something that can be explained to someone else, as one person's experience of faith will probably be different from someone else's. 

It's probably the differences that cause the problems on the planet.  There are similar methods or practices within most 'religions' which are used to consciously transcend the 'realms' of intellect and egotistical desires and when introduced to groups of people, a community spirit is formed. Instead of people declaring that they simply use such and such a method they give themselves a community name which usually separates them from those with a different community name. With a bit of political indoctrination thrown in by egotistical leaders the differences can be emphasised and lead to conflict.  Carl Marx called religion the opiate of the masses and it was replaced by communism,the cannabis of the masses.

[Stranger]

Is the 'existence of god' part related to a faith the most important part of the equation for you and you can't see or progress any further until that issue has been put to bed definitively one way or the other?

I guess, sort of. It's just important to me that my beliefs have a reasonable chance of being true. You talk of 'progress' as if I'm stuck or something, but I really don't see it like that at all. To be honest, the way of thinking you describe just doesn't make sense to me. Even if I decided for some reason that I wanted to 'progress' in that way, I'd have no clue how to go about it. My brain just doesn't seem to work that way. My beliefs are based on whether I'm convinced by the information I have or not. It's not something I can just choose, something would have to change my mind.

The Pinker/Russell quote made perfect sense to me, as does the following:

"I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of uncertainty about different things, but I am not absolutely sure of anything. There are many things I don't know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask "Why are we here?" I might think about it a little bit, and if I can't figure it out then I go on to something else. But I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose - which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell."

-- Richard Feynman, The Pleasure of Finding Things Out

[Nearly Sane]

Many years ago, when the stop and search law, refered to as the sus law, was being discussed in the late 70s, early 80s before its repeal, a classmate, Dave Kelly, and I formulated a thing called the suss law, stating that the only thing that you could have sussed was knowing you couldn't have anything sussed. Its pleasing paradoxical structure appealed to adolescents.

Having a sort of rough version of the Feynmann quote has never struck me as anything other than that pretty adolescent structure. It's like the free will debate, an intellectual curiosity with as much impact on daily life as a forgotten piece of lint.

[Gonnagle]

I guess, sort of. It's just important to me that my beliefs have a reasonable chance of being true. You talk of 'progress' as if I'm stuck or something, but I really don't see it like that at all. To be honest, the way of thinking you describe just doesn't make sense to me. Even if I decided for some reason that I wanted to 'progress' in that way, I'd have no clue how to go about it. My brain just doesn't seem to work that way. My beliefs are based on whether I'm convinced by the information I have or not. It's not something I can just choose, something would have to change my mind.

The Pinker/Russell quote made perfect sense to me, as does the following:

"I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of uncertainty about different things, but I am not absolutely sure of anything. There are many things I don't know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask "Why are we here?" I might think about it a little bit, and if I can't figure it out then I go on to something else. But I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose - which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell."

-- Richard Feynman, The Pleasure of Finding Things Out

Dear Stranger,

By chove you've got it, I have no reply to your post or your Feynman quote, the great unknown, thank you, that will do for me.

Dear Sane, Gordon, Jeremyp, Arun,

I put it to the committee that the forum be renamed, I can't convince The Stranger and he can't convince me, we are going to settle for unknown, I blame Gabriella ❤️ wonder if there is a vacancy open for a new Muslim no way Hosea, I am a practicing Christian and I am going to keep practicing until I get it right✝️✝️✝️❤️

Gonnagle.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I guess, sort of. It's just important to me that my beliefs have a reasonable chance of being true. You talk of 'progress' as if I'm stuck or something, but I really don't see it like that at all. To be honest, the way of thinking you describe just doesn't make sense to me. Even if I decided for some reason that I wanted to 'progress' in that way, I'd have no clue how to go about it. My brain just doesn't seem to work that way. My beliefs are based on whether I'm convinced by the information I have or not. It's not something I can just choose, something would have to change my mind.

Sure - I agree you need to have some speck of belief to change your mind. That's what happened to me - I read a few pages of the Quran as an atheist thinking this is bound to be complete misogynist rubbish and something sparked in my brain - some kind of recognition of how the words applied to me in a way that I had not ever thought about before. So reading something I wasn't expecting to find changed my mind and sparked a belief even though I didn't want it to - in something that seemed to know me better than I knew myself. The experience sounds mundane and stupid, but I don't really have the words to describe the feeling.

By 'progress' I meant move on to some other aspect -  like in an exam where you are confident you answered Q1 (i) but don't know the answer to Q1 (ii) so you fudge it or guess something or take a position that you can use to move on to Q1 (iii), (iv), and (v).

So if I guess Allah exists based on faith, I can use that to move onto the other parts of actually practising the religion - fasting, praying, zakat, Hajj etc - and if that improves and benefits my life more than being atheist, then I have even less motivation to go ack to being an atheist.

My experience often is that my actions, even when my heart isn't in it, has an impact on my emotions and feelings - e.g. in Islam prayer has a series of set movements and rituals so I could pray 5 times a day because I'm required to even though I'd rather do something else, but by the end of the prayer I feel better than I did before I started so I'm glad I did it.

It's like going for a run when you don't feel like it and enjoying the endorphin buzz when you finish.

Praying in Arabic means while you're saying the words from the Quran, you're translating them into English in your head as you're saying them, contemplating their meaning and how it applies to you and the problems in the world around you etc etc. It doesn't mean I end up with any answers or am sure or certain, but the words in the Quran mean something to me - similar to how the words of Pinker, Russell and Feynman mean something to you.

The Pinker/Russell quote made perfect sense to me, as does the following:

"I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of uncertainty about different things, but I am not absolutely sure of anything. There are many things I don't know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask "Why are we here?" I might think about it a little bit, and if I can't figure it out then I go on to something else. But I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose - which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell."

-- Richard Feynman, The Pleasure of Finding Things Out

Sure, I agree, there is nothing frightening about not having a purpose. Being an atheist was pretty comforting - knowing once you die, that's it.

Belief in some kind of higher accountability is less comforting.  What I find comforting as a theist I suppose is that reading the Quran gives me a belief in purpose and accountability, which leads me to practise Islam, which I find keeps me out of trouble (and improves my mental and emotional health) more than if I didn't practise Islam.

[Stranger]

Sure - I agree you need to have some speck of belief to change your mind.

I'd actually need some spec of evidence or sound reasoning to change my mind about what exists.

By 'progress' I meant move on to some other aspect -  like in an exam where you are confident you answered Q1 (i) but don't know the answer to Q1 (ii) so you fudge it or guess something or take a position that you can use to move on to Q1 (iii), (iv), and (v).

So if I guess Allah exists based on faith...

This is entirely alien to the way my mind works. I can't even imagine believing that something exists by faith.

...I can use that to move onto the other parts of actually practising the religion - fasting, praying, zakat, Hajj etc - and if that improves and benefits my life more than being atheist, then I have even less motivation to go ack to being an atheist.

I have no real desire for the trappings of religion either. I have no wish to 'progress' like this. Even if I became convinced that a God existed, I'm far from certain that I'd follow its religion (if it had one). The whole idea of worship, for example, seems repugnant to me.

People are different, I guess.

Sure, I agree, there is nothing frightening about not having a purpose. Being an atheist was pretty comforting - knowing once you die, that's it.

Not sure I'd describe it as comforting. It's not something I think about much, just something I accept.

Belief in some kind of higher accountability is less comforting.

Why would that be the case, unless you fear a harsh or unfair judgement?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I'd actually need some spec of evidence or sound reasoning to change my mind about what exists.

Ok.

As there is no objective testable evidence - the only speck that I would call 'evidence' is subjective - based on thoughts.

This is entirely alien to the way my mind works. I can't even imagine believing that something exists by faith.

Fair enough - as you say, people are different - nature/ nurture.

I have no real desire for the trappings of religion either. I have no wish to 'progress' like this. Even if I became convinced that a God existed, I'm far from certain that I'd follow its religion (if it had one). The whole idea of worship, for example, seems repugnant to me.

Sure - it was also repugnant to me as an atheist - seemed demeaning and pathetic.

Now I find worship useful.

Why would that be the case, unless you fear a harsh or unfair judgement?

More just the idea of accountability is uncomfortable because you're relinquishing control.

But a higher accountability is quite handy sometimes e.g. when a family member/ friend/ acquaintance pisses me off if my reaction is to want to say something to hurt them back to make myself feel better, the idea of a higher accountability where I will be doing something good if I walk away from the situation  instead of exploding often helps dissipate my anger.

[ProfessorDavey]

But a higher accountability is quite handy sometimes e.g. when a family member/ friend/ acquaintance pisses me off if my reaction is to want to say something to hurt them back to make myself feel better, the idea of a higher accountability where I will be doing something good if I walk away from the situation  instead of exploding often helps dissipate my anger.

I don't see why a higher accountability is necessary at all. Surely all that is needed is a conscience and a level of empathy towards the other person. The golden rule would surely lead you to exactly the same conclusion, that keeping calm and walking away is the right thing to do, without any need to check what a higher authority might consider the right thing.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Thread,

And there was tears of joy in the Forum, hallelujah, the Prof and the Stranger have saved the day🥳🥳 we thought that the Saintly Gabriella had broken the forum but no the Prof and Stranger too the rescue, the mods were sweating "spare a copper for a out of work Moderator Guv'nor" Peace ( well a kind of peace ) has settled on the Kingdom.

Dear Prof and Stranger,

I have no real desire for the trappings of religion either. I have no wish to 'progress' like this. Even if I became convinced that a God existed, I'm far from certain that I'd follow its religion (if it had one). The whole idea of worship, for example, seems repugnant to me.

Oh and before I continue, this is a posting of a subjective Christian type poster, glad I got that out of the way

This is how I worship God and the good Prof has mentioned it, and I definitely do not find it repugnant.

The "Golden Rule," often expressed as "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," is a fundamental ethical principle found in the Bible, specifically in Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31.
Key Points:
Biblical Origin:
The Golden Rule is rooted in the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament, particularly in Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31.
Matthew 7:12:
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets".
Luke 6:31:
"And as you wish that others would do to you, do the same to them".
Meaning:
The Golden Rule emphasizes treating others with the same kindness, respect, and consideration that you would desire for yourself.
Universality:
While rooted in Christian teachings, the Golden Rule is recognized as a universal ethical principle with parallels in other philosophical and religious traditions.
Negative Form:
The Golden Rule also has a negative form: "Do not do to others what you would not like them to do to you".
Importance:
The Golden Rule is a core principle of Christian ethics, emphasizing love and compassion for others.



The second is like the first✝️

But this also reminds me, to take the Beam out of my own eye, not to cast the first stone, it is better to give, to be a servant to mankind the best way I can, this is my, what Gabriella calls higher accountability.

Practice, practice, practice until it becomes second nature, and no I have not got there yet, but I continue to practice.

So gentlemen, saviours of the forum, what is your higher accountability ( stand by Gonnagle prepare to be boarded by ego's )

Gonnagle, Gonzo, Gonners, ya pair a muppets, gies a kiss.❤️

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I don't see why a higher accountability is necessary at all. Surely all that is needed is a conscience and a level of empathy towards the other person.

Well, that would be nice if that was my temperament...however, my temperament could be more accurately described as: If someone is being a twat to me, my conscience is clear if I give them a verbal kicking. In fact I kind of think they are expecting it - presumably that's why they are being a twat to me. They clearly want to play this game so let's play.

The golden rule would surely lead you to exactly the same conclusion, that keeping calm and walking away is the right thing to do, without any need to check what a higher authority might consider the right thing.

Not really - if I was being a twat to someone else I would fully expect and think it right for them to give me a verbal kicking.

The problem is that while I and the other twat might be relishing laying into each other, there are other more boring ways  to deal with the situation that doesn't disturb bystanders. 

Also, I sometimes find that people start fights by being thoughtless, selfish, arrogant twats and then act wounded that I don't hold back in response. Go figure. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't see why a higher accountability is necessary at all. Surely all that is needed is a conscience and a level of empathy towards the other person. The golden rule would surely lead you to exactly the same conclusion, that keeping calm and walking away is the right thing to do, without any need to check what a higher authority might consider the right thing.

Professor, I feel this post might be the "humanist good without God" line, something I've questioned that might be a lot easier in the saying than in the doing and explaining.

I wonder for how many, staying Calm and walking away isn't actually code for "not really giving a monkeys" and not wanting the interaction.

Secondly Christians would claim that the faculties that you seem to describe as fully formed in the humanist or message board atheist, tolerance, calmness etc are better in them since accepting Christ.

[Gordon]

Professor, I feel this post might be the "humanist good without God" line, something I've questioned that might be a lot easier in the saying than in the doing and explaining.

I do everything 'without God' because I'm not a theist: the easy bits, the hard bits and the everyday 'just living life' bits.

I wonder for how many, staying Calm and walking away isn't actually code for "not really giving a monkeys" and not wanting the interaction.

Wonder away, Vlad.

Secondly Christians would claim that the faculties that you seem to describe as fully formed in the humanist or message board atheist, tolerance, calmness etc are better in them since accepting Christ.

No doubt they would - so what!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I do everything 'without God' because I'm not a theist: the easy bits, the hard bits and the everyday 'just living life'

And then, Professor there's the "life more abundant than a religious person" suggestion.

[Gordon]

And then, Professor there's the "life more abundant than a religious person" suggestion.

Who suggested that, Vlad? Not me.

[ProfessorDavey]

And then, Professor there's the "life more abundant than a religious person" suggestion.

Eh!?!

Not sure I even understand what you are claiming I suggested, let alone that I actually suggested anything of the sort.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Who suggested that, Vlad? Not me.

I cannot claim that my life is more honestly or harder or more deeply and intensly lived than anybody elses, Gordon, because I am not them.
But I can say that mine is since accepting Christ.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Eh!?!

Not sure I even understand what you are claiming I suggested, let alone that I actually suggested anything of the sort.

I have read atheists who think their life is fuller and deeper than say, a christian's, because they don't have the emotional crutch of a God.

[ProfessorDavey]

I wonder for how many, staying Calm and walking away isn't actually code for "not really giving a monkeys" and not wanting the interaction.

Well I cannot speak for all atheists (and nor can you speak for all christians).

But my experience is exactly the opposite. I became interested in, recognised the importance of and really started to take notice of ethics/morality from the point where I recognised I was atheist. Prior to that, in my nominal 'I guess there a god and I guess that god is the christian god because that's what my societal upbringing told me' morality and ethics were something largely outsourced - something that you were told what to do and not do by others on the basis of some rule book, based on some nominal god. Something that wasn't really personally about me, nor something that I felt I had personal responsibility for.

That all changed when I came to recognise that I did not believe in god - no longer could I just leave this to others and their rules and their books. Nope I had a personal responsibility to determine what I considered to be right and wrong and a personal responsibility to uphold my own moral conscience. In a way this was really a bit scary - suddenly I had to do some work on the ethics, rather than outsourcing. And that's what I did - from that point onwards (and continuing to this day) I have had a deep personal and professional interest in ethics. I doubt that would have happened had I not become an atheist.

Secondly Christians would claim that the faculties that you seem to describe as fully formed in the humanist or message board atheist, tolerance, calmness etc are better in them since accepting Christ.

So what - see above.

This atheist would counter - that tolerance, calmness etc are better in me since accepting that I did not believe in god.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Vlad,

Go get them auld son, I've got yer back, just saving up for a really thick Leather bound ( two coo's thick leather bound way brass edging ) Bible, and then we will really smite the unGodly, cower in fear Atheists the end is nigh ( well just after I have my breakfast  )

Gonnagle.

[ProfessorDavey]

I have read atheists who think their life is fuller and deeper than say, a christian's, because they don't have the emotional crutch of a God.

You don't just need to read about it - I am that atheist*. See my last post.

*Well I cannot compare myself with a christian as I am not one. So I'd rephrase that my life is fuller and deeper and more ethically fulfilled since I recognised that I did not believe in god (for the reasons explained in my previous post).

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Vlad,

Go get them auld son, I've got yer back, just saving up for a really thick Leather bound ( two coo's thick leather bound way brass edging ) Bible, and then we will really smite the unGodly, cower in fear Atheists the end is nigh ( well just after I have my breakfast  )

Gonnagle.

What puzzles me Mr G is why you don't just go to your local RC church, find a suitable angry Ruby faced priest and ask to borrow one, mentioning the words atheist and Dawkins

[Gordon]

I cannot claim that my life is more honestly or harder or more deeply and intensly lived than anybody elses, Gordon, because I am not them.
But I can say that mine is since accepting Christ.

Then you are talking about yourself, Vlad: how is that relevant to someone like me?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Then you are talking about yourself, Vlad: how is that relevant to someone like me?

But you are suggesting some significant difference between you and me there, aren't you Gordon?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Vlad,

RC Church What kind of Christian are you I would melt or burst into flames, well my Rangers scarf might become slightly tarnished   but this highlights a very serious problem which us poor Christians suffer from, Church or the building of, in my neck of the woods we have a huge, megalith RC Church, all new and sparkling and they are forever adding to its sparkle, new steps, new lighting and just across the road not ten yards away is the CoS, very old but still huge another megalith, the upkeep must be enormous.

And I look at the two and ask, is this what God wants, I have searched the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ, help me out, show me this is what Jesus wants✝️

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Vlad,

RC Church What kind of Christian are you I would melt or burst into flames, well my Rangers scarf might become slightly tarnished   but this highlights a very serious problem which us poor Christians suffer from, Church or the building of, in my neck of the woods we have a huge, megalith RC Church, all new and sparkling and they are forever adding to its sparkle, new steps, new lighting and just across the road not ten yards away is the CoS, very old but still huge another megalith, the upkeep must be enormous.

And I look at the two and ask, is this what God wants, I have searched the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ, help me out, show me this is what Jesus wants✝️

Gonnagle.

I merely mentioned them on the expedient that their bibles have more books in them, are heavier and are therfore better for the job of literal bible bashing.