Atheists, must try harder✝️

[Gonnagle]

Dear Fellow Posters,

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/religion/article/spiritual-gen-z-drive-increase-in-bible-sales-vnphxfjn5

Gonnagle.

[Aruntraveller]

I have noticed a dearth of good fiction so I suppose this stuff fills a need.

Sales of books on healing crystals have also risen. So the need for fiction for the credulous remains strong.

[Stranger]

Rationality is not a popularity contest.   

[jeremyp]

Dear Fellow Posters,

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/religion/article/spiritual-gen-z-drive-increase-in-bible-sales-vnphxfjn5

Gonnagle.

While generally sales of fiction works are increasing, those of non-fiction books have been declining: Nielsen recorded a 6 per cent fall from 2023 to 2024.

However, books about religion are bucking this trend. A spokeswoman for Nielsen Book Data said: “Spending on religious books in total last year measured £25.2 million, up 3 per cent year-on-year.”

Help me out. Fiction sales are going up. Non fiction sales are going down. Religious book sales are going up. How is the trend being bucked. Gen z likes fiction. It seems obvious then that the Bible would appeal to them.

[ProfessorDavey]

Dear Fellow Posters,

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/religion/article/spiritual-gen-z-drive-increase-in-bible-sales-vnphxfjn5

Gonnagle.

I saw this article in the paper yesterday as I get the Times, and it seems to be adding 2+2 to equal bananas. So they ram two disparate bits of information together and infer that they are linked. Specifically that sales of bibles have increased (from one survey put together by a Christian publisher - always check the provenance of a survey for risk of bias!) and that gen Z appear to be more spiritual (another survey). But there is absolutely nothing to demonstrate that gen Z people are actually buying more bibles.

So without knowing who is actually buying these bibles we cannot ascertain whether this is:

a) a 17 year old saving up pocket money and Saturday job money so they can buy a bible or
b) organisation evangelical charities who buy bibles and then distribute them for free to organisations and individuals

I think b) to be far more likely as there have been a number of highly publicised campaigns over the past couple of years from evangelical organisations to provide free bibles to children and young people - most notably a campaign to provide every 11 year old, joining a secondary school with a bible through their school. They claim they distribute 400,000 bibles a year - at £5 a pop that would easily explain the increase in sales.

There is also this in the article:

'A spokeswoman for Nielsen Book Data said: “Spending on religious books in total last year measured £25.2 million, up 3 per cent year-on-year.”

hmm 3% increase year on year. Inflation has been running at well over 3% for most of the last few years. So their supposedly impressive increase in sales value seems merely (at best) to just be in line with inflation.

And of course the final point is that owning a bible doesn't make you a christian - all sorts of people own all sorts of books without necessarily believing or agreeing with their contents. My father, a life long Tory and devotee of Thatcher owned a copy of Mao's Little Red Book - didn't make him a communist!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I saw this article in the paper yesterday as I get the Times, and it seems to be adding 2+2 to equal bananas. So they ram two disparate bits of information together and infer that they are linked. Specifically that sales of bibles have increased (from one survey put together by a Christian publisher - always check the provenance of a survey for risk of bias!) and that gen Z appear to be more spiritual (another survey). But there is absolutely nothing to demonstrate that gen Z people are actually buying more bibles.

So without knowing who is actually buying these bibles we cannot ascertain whether this is:

a) a 17 year old saving up pocket money and Saturday job money so they can buy a bible or
b) organisation evangelical charities who buy bibles and then distribute them for free to organisations and individuals

I think b) to be far more likely as there have been a number of highly publicised campaigns over the past couple of years from evangelical organisations to provide free bibles to children and young people - most notably a campaign to provide every 11 year old, joining a secondary school with a bible through their school. They claim they distribute 400,000 bibles a year - at £5 a pop that would easily explain the increase in sales.

There is also this in the article:

'A spokeswoman for Nielsen Book Data said: “Spending on religious books in total last year measured £25.2 million, up 3 per cent year-on-year.”

hmm 3% increase year on year. Inflation has been running at well over 3% for most of the last few years. So their supposedly impressive increase in sales value seems merely (at best) to just be in line with inflation.

And of course the final point is that owning a bible doesn't make you a christian - all sorts of people own all sorts of books without necessarily believing or agreeing with their contents. My father, a life long Tory and devotee of Thatcher owned a copy of Mao's Little Red Book - didn't make him a communist!

While I agree having a Bible doesn't make one a christian (it would be interesting to hear then what does). It doesn't really follow PZ Myers wish of not having to understand Christianity

[ProfessorDavey]

While I agree having a Bible doesn't make one a christian (it would be interesting to hear then what does). It doesn't really follow PZ Myers wish of not having to understand Christianity

Why are you bringing in PZ Myers Vlad - I don't think anyone has mentioned him and given that I have no idea what opinion of his you are referring to then the comment seems rather irrelevant.

However, back on topic and back to relevance. Something else to ponder in relation to this claimed uptick in sales of bibles to Gen Z. Well as the father of three Gen Z kids it seems bizarre in the extreme that as a cohort they would be spending £millions on something that they can access completely free on-line. Doesn't really seem likely does it.

The most plausible explanation if these claims are correct is an uptick in activity by evangelical organisations that distribute bibles to institutions such as schools, prisons, hospitals etc or directly to individuals. There is, of course, no guarantee that a donated bible is wanted by that institution or individual, nor of course that it is read rather than simply being left on a shelf.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why are you bringing in PZ Myers Vlad - I don't think anyone has mentioned him and given that I have no idea what opinion of his you are referring to then the comment seems rather irrelevant.

However, back on topic and back to relevance. Something else to ponder in relation to this claimed uptick in sales of bibles to Gen Z. Well as the father of three Gen Z kids it seems bizarre in the extreme that as a cohort they would be spending £millions on something that they can access completely free on-line. Doesn't really seem likely does it.

The most plausible explanation if these claims are correct is an uptick in activity by evangelical organisations that distribute bibles to institutions such as schools, prisons, hospitals etc or directly to individuals. There is, of course, no guarantee that a donated bible is wanted by that institution or individual, nor of course that it is read rather than simply being left on a shelf.

PZ famously said you didn't have to know about Christianity to oppose it. This sounds like, if true, people wanting to know.
Is revival happening in the UK?It's happened before.

[ProfessorDavey]

PZ famously said you didn't have to know about Christianity to oppose it. This sounds like, if true, people wanting to know.
Is revival happening in the UK?It's happened before.

if true doing a lot of heavy lifting there Vlad.

Is there a revival - well if there was one you would expect to see an uptick in actual worship, for example an increase in GenZ's attending church. As far as I'm aware there is no evidence of that whatsoever, indeed quite the reverse. There is plenty of evidence that churches up and down the country are not attracting young people with the numbers attending continuing to decline, indeed many have no young members whatsoever.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

if true doing a lot of heavy lifting there Vlad.

Is there a revival - well if there was one you would expect to see an uptick in actual worship, for example an increase in GenZ's attending church. As far as I'm aware there is no evidence of that whatsoever, indeed quite the reverse. There is plenty of evidence that churches up and down the country are not attracting young people with the numbers attending continuing to decline, indeed many have no young members whatsoever.

I'm still waiting to hear from you what, for you constitutes being a Christian, we know you don't think only owning a Bible doesn't.

At present it looks like church attendance is your criteria which puts me in mind of the old adage, "Turning up at the garage doesn't make you a car".

[ProfessorDavey]

At present it looks like church attendance is your criteria which puts me in mind of the old adage, "Turning up at the garage doesn't make you a car".

Given that most christian denominations place a great emphasis on active and collective worship then I do think that attendance is a pretty good indicator of those who are committed and active christians.

Otherwise you'll need to justify the existence of huge numbers of committed christians who never attend worship. Where exactly are these secret and hidden millions of young committed christians then, given that they certainly aren't in church.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm still waiting to hear from you what, for you constitutes being a Christian, we know you don't think only owning a Bible doesn't.

I guess someone who believes in the key tenets of christian teaching would constitute a christian. But there will be gradations.

So there will be some who have a vague acceptance of christian teaching but simply due to upbringing and the culture/society they live in, but for who that nominal belief is irrelevant to their day to day lives and they wouldn't do anything 'active' to demonstrate their christianity (note this isn't merely the cultural/census christian who likely does not believe in the christian claims, but might engage in occasional activity from a purely cultural perspective).

So then you'll move to the next step where people may consider their christian beliefs to be important to their lives, but still aren't really active and then through to those that demonstrate their christianity via active worship.

So it is Voas' classic believe/importance/activity stages.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I guess someone who believes in the key tenets of christian teaching would constitute a christian. But there will be gradations.

So there will be some who have a vague acceptance of christian teaching but simply due to upbringing and the culture/society they live in, but for who that nominal belief is irrelevant to their day to day lives and they wouldn't do anything 'active' to demonstrate their christianity (note this isn't merely the cultural/census christian who likely does not believe in the christian claims, but might engage in occasional activity from a purely cultural perspective).

So then you'll move to the next step where people may consider their christian beliefs to be important to their lives, but still aren't really active and then through to those that demonstrate their christianity via active worship.

So it is Voas' classic believe/importance/activity stages.

Not sure your gradations here are comprehensive enough.

 Interesting but a little sly in their execution I think, nest pas?

[ProfessorDavey]

Not sure your gradations here are comprehensive enough.

I never claimed they were completely comprehensive and it will be a spectrum rather than categories with hard delineations. But I think these categories a broadly appropriate. If you think not then over to you Vlad - let's have your definition of a christian and how that works out in practical terms on the basis of the population of 'christians'.

Interesting but a little sly in their execution I think, nest pas?

Nope - you've lost me now. What on earth are you on about.

[Sassy]

I have noticed a dearth of good fiction so I suppose this stuff fills a need.

Sales of books on healing crystals have also risen. So the need for fiction for the credulous remains strong.

But the question remains:-  Have you read the above you mention to have gained a comprehensive understanding to call it fiction?


Loved this...Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

[Aruntraveller]

But the question remains:-  Have you read the above you mention to have gained a comprehensive understanding to call it fiction?


Loved this...Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Of course, I've read lots of books about healing crystals.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sassy,

But the question remains:-  Have you read the above you mention to have gained a comprehensive understanding to call it fiction?


Loved this...Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

You don't have to read all of the Harry Potter books to gain a "comprehensive understanding" that people don't fly around on broomsticks.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sassy,

You don't have to read all of the Harry Potter books to gain a "comprehensive understanding" that people don't fly around on broomsticks.

Horses laugh, Hillside.

[Gonnagle]

Sassy,

You don't have to read all of the Harry Potter books to gain a "comprehensive understanding" that people don't fly around on broomsticks.

Dear Blue,

Your post has me thinking ( it hurts make them stop ) you don't get your PHD unless you do have a thorough understanding, but then I would rather listen to someone with life experience than some numpty with letters after his name

Gonnagle.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Horses laugh, Hillside.

Wrong again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gonners,

Your post has me thinking ( it hurts make them stop ) you don't get your PHD unless you do have a thorough understanding, but then I would rather listen to someone with life experience than some numpty with letters after his name

That's not the point though. You wouldn't for example need a PhD in the works of J K Rowling to know that people don't fly around on broomsticks. See also Vlad's repeated screw up re the Courtier's Reply.     

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Wrong again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

"I'm not just taking the piss" said Hillside in a pistaking manner.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

"I'm not just taking the piss" said Hillside in a pistaking manner.

Just out of interest, are you genuinely unable to grasp the meaning of the reductio ad absurdum? Do you really think that any rebuttal that contains an absurdity must therefore be what you call a "horse's laugh" argument because the construction of the reductio ad absurdum is beyond your ability to understand it? 

Your knee jerk "horse's laugh, horse's laugh" response every time a reductio ad absurdum is made certainly suggests that that is the case. It really shouldn't be that hard to grasp though, even for you. Here it is again – suggest you try reading it this time to avoid further embarrassing yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum