Should we leave the EEC?

[Hope]

Re: the Marshall Plan.

An interesting article from the BBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

[ippy]

Semantics Proff, just as I said true to form.

ippy

No Ippy, you're just wrong again.

Who took us into the EEC?

ippy

[ippy]

Ted Heath.
There was no referendum, it was a manifesto pledge.
Are you going to claim that the general election was in fact a referendum and THEN accuse me of quibbling over semantics?

O K Proff, how does that alter my point about the referendum was for the membership of the EEC not the EU?

ippy

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Should we leave the EEC(sic)?

No.

This time Jeremy is correct.

OK I post now as a member not as a moderator.

Yes the UK should stay in the EU rather than being the 51st State of the USA, and rather than being a nonentity on the edge of Europe.

I read in the Torygraph recently that a wealthy PUKIP supporter now owns the Daily Express, and the Daily Star. IMHO the former is aimed at those who want to see Kate looking a bit more like the Queen Mum, and the latter is aimed at those who want to see more of Cheryl Cole's bum.

Thank you.

[L.A.]

Yes the UK should stay in the EU rather than being the 51st State of the USA, and rather than being a nonentity on the edge of Europe.

While the EU might be overdue for reform with it's (seemingly) unaccountable Brussels bureaucracy, it gives us access to one of the worlds largest trading blocks and we would have plenty of allies in the reform process if we could just concentrate on the real problems and abandon the hysterics!

The irony is that Farage's clowns are only likely to split the Conservative vote and get Miliband elected as the leader of a weak Socialist pro-EU administration, totally incapable of pushing forward the required changes.

[Harrowby Hall]

Yes the UK should stay in the EU rather than being the 51st State of the USA, and rather than being a nonentity on the edge of Europe.

While the EU might be overdue for reform with it's (seemingly) unaccountable Brussels bureaucracy, it gives us access to one of the worlds largest trading blocks and we would have plenty of allies in the reform process if we could just concentrate on the real problems and abandon the hysterics!

The irony is that Farage's clowns are only likely to split the Conservative vote and get Miliband elected as the leader of a weak Socialist pro-EU administration, totally incapable of pushing forward the required changes.

Karma Applaud

[Elevenses81]

My thoughts exactly Lapsed Atheist.

[Udayana]

Yes the UK should stay in the EU rather than being the 51st State of the USA, and rather than being a nonentity on the edge of Europe.

While the EU might be overdue for reform with it's (seemingly) unaccountable Brussels bureaucracy, it gives us access to one of the worlds largest trading blocks and we would have plenty of allies in the reform process if we could just concentrate on the real problems and abandon the hysterics!

The irony is that Farage's clowns are only likely to split the Conservative vote and get Miliband elected as the leader of a weak Socialist pro-EU administration, totally incapable of pushing forward the required changes.

The trouble is that most of the EU institutions and organisations are deeply flawed and even corrupt. They protect themselves from reform by exploiting the differing interests of the member states and directing farces - such as the changes to the payments/rebates to the EU budget currently in the news.

[Elevenses81]

The payments/rebates are not 'changes', and have always operated this way. Cameron can huff and puff, but we all know he will end up agreeing. Playing for waivering Tory voters using the EU payment demand will certainly backfire. Yes of course the EU needs reform, but not this way.

[Hope]

The irony is that Farage's clowns are only likely to split the Conservative vote and get Miliband elected as the leader of a weak Socialist pro-EU administration, totally incapable of pushing forward the required changes.

However, its worth remembering that UKIP are taking from Labour as well, LA.  You comment about the possibility of a 'weak Socialist pro-EU administration' seems to miss the point that what we need is a strong centrist pro-Europe administration that can push forward the needed changes (something that currently only the Tory Party seems willing to be/attempt) which can only really eventuate if Tory and Labour 'moderates'  are willing to work together, perhaps with a Lib-Dem rump.  I sometimes feel that DC fails to keep his gunpowder dry, which he really ought not to be blurting out until he is actually in the actual talks.

[L.A.]

The trouble is that most of the EU institutions and organisations are deeply flawed and even corrupt. They protect themselves from reform by exploiting the differing interests of the member states and directing farces - such as the changes to the payments/rebates to the EU budget currently in the news.

Many of those criticisms are true of any large institution, the solution is transparency and accountability - those are the things that we should be pushing for.

[Hope]

Many of those criticisms are true of any large institution, the solution is transparency and accountability - those are the things that we should be pushing for.

And which of the main 4 or 5 UK political parties are doing so? 

[L.A.]

The irony is that Farage's clowns are only likely to split the Conservative vote and get Miliband elected as the leader of a weak Socialist pro-EU administration, totally incapable of pushing forward the required changes.

However, its worth remembering that UKIP are taking from Labour as well, LA.  You comment about the possibility of a 'weak Socialist pro-EU administration' seems to miss the point that what we need is a strong centrist pro-Europe administration that can push forward the needed changes (something that currently only the Tory Party seems willing to be/attempt) which can only really eventuate if Tory and Labour 'moderates'  are willing to work together, perhaps with a Lib-Dem rump.  I sometimes feel that DC fails to keep his gunpowder dry, which he really ought not to be blurting out until he is actually in the actual talks.

I don't think that there is any evidence that traditional Labour voters are 'flocking' to UKIP it's more the 'don't knows'. The recent 'near-miss' at Heywood & Middleton probably had more to do with Labour voters staying at home.

I agree that we need a strong centrist pro-Europe administration, but being 'pro-Europe' should not mean being uncritical of the EU. To me the greatest danger would be that the UKIP vote might end-up giving us a minority Labour government, propped-up by LIB-DEMs and nationalists. A weak administration totally unable to stand-up to Brussels or make unpopular decisions at home.

[L.A.]

Many of those criticisms are true of any large institution, the solution is transparency and accountability - those are the things that we should be pushing for.

And which of the main 4 or 5 UK political parties are doing so?

THAT is the real question that we should be asking.

[Udayana]

A bit of wishful thinking: Is there any chance that the other parties (ie aside from UKIP) could formulate and agree on an EU reform policy/program and build a supporting coalition with other member states?

[L.A.]

A bit of wishful thinking: Is there any chance that the other parties (ie aside from UKIP) could formulate and agree on an EU reform policy/program and build a supporting coalition with other member states?

The Germans and Dutch are quite keen on reform, and I dare say we could work with them if we could just get over our current xenophobic tantrum.

[Hope]

A bit of wishful thinking: Is there any chance that the other parties (ie aside from UKIP) could formulate and agree on an EU reform policy/program and build a supporting coalition with other member states?

If only.  Ironically, we need UKIP to do well enough to scare both the main parties into a coalition which we really ought to have had back in 2010.  At least we would then have a government which was set on keeping us in a reformed EU.

[Hope]

The Germans and Dutch are quite keen on reform, and I dare say we could work with them if we could just get over our current xenophobic tantrum.

No, we need the xenophobic tantrum to force the real parties into a productive coalition that would then sideline the tantrum party.

[Elevenses81]

Sadly consensus precludes party political posturing. It would seem sensible to have cross party agreement amongst pro-EU parties, but they just aren't mature enough are they?

[L.A.]

The Germans and Dutch are quite keen on reform, and I dare say we could work with them if we could just get over our current xenophobic tantrum.

No, we need the xenophobic tantrum to force the real parties into a productive coalition that would then sideline the tantrum party.

I'd agree that like a nasty stomach-bug, it probably has to 'run it's course', but that will keep British politics locked in the toilet for some time 

[Hope]

Sadly consensus precludes party political posturing. It would seem sensible to have cross party agreement amongst pro-EU parties, but they just aren't mature enough are they?

I think the parties in and of themselves are mature enough; it's the bulk of the electorate who aren't.

[King Oberon]

It would seem sensible to have cross party agreement amongst pro-EU parties, but they just aren't mature enough are they?

You never know.

They might promise the world, get some scare stories started in the press and media, get a couple of celebs to endorse the euro and band together.. al la referendum style...

Strange one really as my heart tells me to stay in but my head really echoes what Udayana said.

[splashscuba]

The EEC today is a very different animal.

Yep it's called the EU.

[jeremyp]

Yes the UK should stay in the EU rather than being the 51st State of the USA, and rather than being a nonentity on the edge of Europe.

While the EU might be overdue for reform with it's (seemingly) unaccountable Brussels bureaucracy, it gives us access to one of the worlds largest trading blocks and we would have plenty of allies in the reform process if we could just concentrate on the real problems and abandon the hysterics!

The irony is that Farage's clowns are only likely to split the Conservative vote and get Miliband elected as the leader of a weak Socialist pro-EU administration, totally incapable of pushing forward the required changes.

I think that's a pretty good assessment. 

[Jack Knave]

It's almost as if the EU Commission conspired with UKIP  to produce anti-EU sentiment and persuade the British Public to vote for out. I wonder if there is more to this than meets the eye?

Someone might have calculated that if they can damage Cameron, Britain might end-up with a pro-EU Socialist government under Red Ed 

Why would a pissed off with the EU British public vote in a pro-EU political party?

A poll in the 'I' has Labour and Conservatives on 30% each and UKIP on 19%.