Should we leave the EEC?

[Jack Knave]

The treaty that Gordon Brown signed    

That was the Lisbon Treaty. You can't just suddenly swot up on it at the last minute and think you will get the facts you have to do it as an on going process.

But it remains fact that the Labour Government, in common with previous Tory and Labour Governments, failed to give the British people a referendum on the Treaty, which was very nearly upset when the French and the Republic of Ireland initially rejected it in referenda held by those two and several other European nations.  I wonder whether the rise of UKIP would have been as it has been if we had had a referendum at that point of time.

Labour in their manifesto promised a vote on the Constitution Treaty which morphed into the Lisbon treaty. They reneged on it because they knew they would lose and Labour are socialists which means, like Lenin, they do not trust the people and only want to implement their madness which is in line with the EU.

[Jack Knave]

We would be better off out than in the EU which is draining our economy.

If you call being in credit from Europe 'draining our economy', you need to have a rethink, JK.  Most serious opponents to our continued EU membership don't refer to the economioc position, but to all the corruption and inefficiencies that abound within the system - the fact that the EU accounts have not been been signed off for 17 or 18 years, the unelected Commissioners can produce Directives that hold as much influence as European Parliamentary 'Acts' that have been properly evaluated and voted on, the unnecessary expenditure on two 'headquarters', the farce that is the Community Agricultural Policy which continues to subsidise inefficient French farm practices, etc.

What are you going on about being in credit?

As a point of correction the EP can not make or propose any laws or directives. Only the Commission can propose  these based on the treaties. It's like basing your life on an out of date book like the Bible and not revaluating your circumstances as time moves on. Totally stupid.

[Jack Knave]

My opinion on the thread title is that, for all its failings and problems (see my earlier post listing some) our membership of the EU is a vital part of our continued economic stability.  Farage's policies - overall - are policies for a steady decline into banana republicanism - similar in outcome, but not in detail, to those of Wilson and Callaghan in the late 70s.

You're Welsh aren't you. That explains everything.

[Elevenses81]

As a lifelong Labour supporter I no longer have the stomach for the likes of Miliband and Emily Thornberry in No 10 on a small majority, but that may well happen as previous posts have suggested. The leadership is mediocre, but how I would vote in May I really don't know. Maybe a tactical Tory vote. My local tory MP is well-respected, local  and very much listens to his a constituents. Labour at the last 3 elections just parachutes in candidates.

Cynicism with our politics has become a depressing reality. A reformed EU is clearly best option for the UK, but Cameron has played his hand like an arse and has only lost whatever support he had from the likes of Germany, Netherlands and even France. I can't believe these nations want a non-functioning EU either. Labour under a decisive leader could achieve reform, but we don't have one.   

[Jack Knave]

I am rather concerned by the obsession with the EU. It seems to me that there is a section of society which can be broadly categorised as the not highly educated lower middle classes in middle life who believe, for some reason, that the "rewards" of life, which they think are due to them, are passing them by. (I say categorisation - I realise that some may consider this close to a caricature.)

They look for a reason and are entranced by slick individual with a passing resemblence to Arthur Daley who tells them that the reasons for this are:
(a) immigrants who, simultaneously, are taking all available jobs and growing rich on welfare benefits as well as monopolising health and education services and
(b) the EU which is submerging our British identity with expensive uncontrolled beaurocracy.

Is this not reminiscent of 1930s Germany when the perceived ills of society were blamed on The Jews?

Should Britain leave the EU expect an early announcement that the Nissan car plant in the North East will close. Nissan is controlled by Renault who would not waste any time in relocating the most efficient car producer in Europe onto French soil.

As far as trade to Europe is concerned, leaving the EU would be an empty gesture. The UK will be faced with all of the existing regulation and "bureaucracy" that it faces now. It costs Switzerland and Norway just as much to trade with the EU (in terms of regulations and bureaucracy) as it does EU members. But being inside the union does mean that a country can influence decision making; being outside the union means having to put up with whatever is thrown at you.

One of Arthur Dal Nigel Farage's claims is that we will be able to trade freely with the rest of the world. Well, don't forget that the competition will then come from the BRICs. Be ready for wages and living standards to fall in order to become competitive. In ten years the UK will be the Argentina of Europe.

I am not totally against Nigel Farage. Like him I believe that the UK needs to reform its preVictorian constitution. I worry that second rate political leaders like Cameron and Milliband are incapable of seeing beyond party advantage and will not seize the opportunities currently presented.

What rubbish. You must be a LibDem twat, as you haven't mentioned Cleggie boy with the other two.

I am indeed blessed. I have been insulted by Jack Knave. I shall bear this as a badge of honour.

As is so often the case, Mr Knave simply insults, he does not provide any reasoned argument. He switches his three working neurones onto full power and blasts away.

Mr Knave : A challenge. Indicate and justify no fewer than three points within my previous post which justify the label "rubbish". It would help if you could present reasoned argument showing why my assertions are incorrect.

Elevenses81 has already attacked me with pomposity ("Get a grip, man") but he does point out that he finds similarities with the behaviour of discontented Germans in the 1930s difficult to accept. Fair enough. But you, Jack, you just blast away. Action without premeditation. The world waits ...

I have in the past presented material/articles on the EU on this forum and have been abused for it even though I wanted people to comment and argue on what I had provided. Instead I got abuse by people who didn't even read it and yet even so passed judgement on what it had 'said'. I can't be bothered to type stuff on the EU that will only be totally ignored except for short reposts.

However, for you my three points are:-

Para 1 & 2 is utter nonsense! Who are these people? You seem to be saying that as they don't agree with you and take what you consider to be an extreme position they must be deluded, insane and imbecilic troglodytes.

Para 4: A similar thing was said if we didn't join the Euro, that businesses would leave and capital would move out of the UK. This never came about and thank God we didn't join that hellhole which idiots like you would have taken us into. France?!?!?!? That country is losing businesses and companies because it is in the Eurozone.

Para 5: Anyone trading with the EU have to keep to their rules including China and the USA. And the EU has to keep to their rules and standards etc. All our produce has to be to EU standards even if it is not going to be sold in the EU thereby imposing extra costs on the suppliers and manufacturers!!! Influence with what? Ever closer union means that the tracks that the EU is on have already been laid in the Treaties (that is to the EUSSR) and there is no way they can turn to the left or right or even backtrack. This is utter madness.

Para 6: Wages and standards are going down because we are in the EU. Look at the Eurozone, what a great success that is!!! What fucking planet are you on??

Para 7: As I said, what fucking planet are you on?? What are you waffling on about pre-Victorian...

I hope you feel blessed.

May the Knave be with you!..Moderator: content removed.

[Jack Knave]

Immigrants pay taxes. Without their contribution the situation would be even less secure than it is now.

Our people pay taxes. We have nearly 2 million unemployed, we don't need any more low skilled people. Immigrants who take jobs take jobs from the indigenous people so you have to add on the benefits they have to take because their jobs have been nicked. Also, the low paid immigrants get in-work benefits so their taxes pretty much add up to nothing when everything is taken into account. Immigrants also drive down wages making Britain a poorer place.

Do you really think that Nigel Farage would lead us to the promised land?

What a stupid thing to say you Moderator: content removed. The EU has taken us to a hellhole that's for sure. Look at its flagship project the Eurozone! A total mess which is about to crash.

[Jack Knave]

Do you really think that Nigel Farage would lead us to the promised land?

God no Harrowby!!!!!!!!!! I may be a pompous and judgemental old sod, but credit me with one more brain cell than Jack. In posing a question about immigration I value the reasoned reply that you have given, but you can't deny that it is a big issue for many people who blame it for suppressing wages and placing great strain on local underfunded infrastructure.

Reasoned reply from Hollowby. You must be joking. I think both of you must have brains comparable with a chimpanzee - though that may be an insult to the chimps at London zoo.

[Sassy]

For DavId Cameron, the latest £2bn demand from Europe [for not stagnating like France] is further cause for further debate on our role in Europe.

The Government was warned...

I voted for the entry in the 1970s on purely economic terms. The EEC today is a very different animal. The EEC was born out of post-WW2 reconstruction as both a determination that there would never be another European war, an economic independence from US aid and to ensure that coal, steel and agriculture were supported by subsidy. How it has grown in size and function since!!!!. 

Is that why all our pits were more or less shut down and the strikes of the 70's took place. You are one of the first I have ever heard admit to voting to go in the EEC. Every adult I know and have met never admitted to that.
To me it appears the poorer countries took the money from the wealthier countris. Basically we got used or is that mugged?

The economic, social and strategic implications are hideously complicated, but for many in the UK it just doesn't meet their needs anymore.

It NEVER met out needs. We just got deeper into debt.

[Jack Knave]

Should we leave the EEC(sic)?

No.

Moderator: content removed.

The answer is yes.

[Jack Knave]

Ever heard of the Marshall Plan?


The UK didn't get a penny of it.

Is that what you really think?  If so, your understanding of economics is rather limited.

The European economy is not a zero sum game.  If the European economy stagnates or is in depression, our economy suffers too.  If the European economy does well, we benefit.

Now you could look on the USA making us pay back all the money we borrowed in the war as being nasty or you could look on it as them selling us stuff and not making us pay for it all for up to 60 years.  How cool is that?

Except the EU GDP is going down year on year. It is virtually dead in the water. We need to leave it.

[Jack Knave]

Yes the UK should stay in the EU rather than being the 51st State of the USA, and rather than being a nonentity on the edge of Europe.

While the EU might be overdue for reform with it's (seemingly) unaccountable Brussels bureaucracy, it gives us access to one of the worlds largest trading blocks and we would have plenty of allies in the reform process if we could just concentrate on the real problems and abandon the hysterics!

The irony is that Farage's clowns are only likely to split the Conservative vote and get Miliband elected as the leader of a weak Socialist pro-EU administration, totally incapable of pushing forward the required changes.

Karma Applaud

He's talking shit, Hollowby.

[Elevenses81]

For DavId Cameron, the latest £2bn demand from Europe [for not stagnating like France] is further cause for further debate on our role in Europe.

The Government was warned...

I voted for the entry in the 1970s on purely economic terms. The EEC today is a very different animal. The EEC was born out of post-WW2 reconstruction as both a determination that there would never be another European war, an economic independence from US aid and to ensure that coal, steel and agriculture were supported by subsidy. How it has grown in size and function since!!!!. 

Is that why all our pits were more or less shut down and the strikes of the 70's took place. You are one of the first I have ever heard admit to voting to go in the EEC. Every adult I know and have met never admitted to that.
To me it appears the poorer countries took the money from the wealthier countris. Basically we got used or is that mugged?

The economic, social and strategic implications are hideously complicated, but for many in the UK it just doesn't meet their needs anymore.

It NEVER met out needs. We just got deeper into debt.

Our pits  closed down because it was cheaper to import coal from open-cast mines in Poland and from afar as Australia than mine our own deep mines. This was not an EU Issue. Not even the EU would support loss-making pits. This continues to leave blighted communities in Wales and northern England that 30 years of Labour and Tory government have done nothing about other than claim to have created X number of jobs. These jobs are unskilled and low-paid and hardly appeal to those who once had well-paid jobs underground.

During the LBC leader’s debate UKIP leader Nigel Farage claimed the UK’s membership fee of the EU is “£55 million a day” – the equivalent of about £20 billion in total per year. In fact with rebates the figure is nearer £12bn. Not a lot when our NHS budget is now over £100bn and £40bn is lost every year in tax avoidance.

The debate about the EU Sassy is not an economic one, but about the perceived loss of Westminster powers. 

[L.A.]

Yes the UK should stay in the EU rather than being the 51st State of the USA, and rather than being a nonentity on the edge of Europe.

While the EU might be overdue for reform with it's (seemingly) unaccountable Brussels bureaucracy, it gives us access to one of the worlds largest trading blocks and we would have plenty of allies in the reform process if we could just concentrate on the real problems and abandon the hysterics!

The irony is that Farage's clowns are only likely to split the Conservative vote and get Miliband elected as the leader of a weak Socialist pro-EU administration, totally incapable of pushing forward the required changes.

Karma Applaud

He's talking shit, Hollowby.

It's always good to hear your skilful analysis Jack, it puts everything in perspective 

[Hope]

I have in the past presented material/articles on the EU on this forum and have been abused for it even though I wanted people to comment and argue on what I had provided. Instead I got abuse by people who didn't even read it and yet even so passed judgement on what it had 'said'. I can't be bothered to type stuff on the EU that will only be totally ignored except for short reposts.

Jack, whilst I am sure that there have been those who have 'passed judgement' without reading (this, after all, seems to be relatively wide-spread across boards and threads), there have been many who have not only read but who have given considerable time to critique the points you have raised - often based on many years of their own study of this particular issue. 

Unfortunately, you don't often seem to have taken their expertise and understanding into account in your responses, simply assuming that your views are the 'correct' views to be held.

[Hope]

The debate about the EU Sassy is not an economic one, but about the perceived loss of Westminster powers.

Not sure I'd agree, 11s.  I'd say that there are elements of both involved.  Certainly, for the majority of folk I know the issues are more financial (which includes auditing) than any perceived loss of Westminster powers.

[wigginhall]

I've seen pro-EU people argue that it's worth £70 billion to the British economy. How they arrive at that figure - no idea.   I expect this kind of thing will be kicked around if there's a referendum.  I think exports are worth about £200 billion, but then some of those would remain outside the EU.  There are also costs associated with EU membership, sometimes calculated at £50 billion, again I don't know how they're calculated.

[Sassy]

For DavId Cameron, the latest £2bn demand from Europe [for not stagnating like France] is further cause for further debate on our role in Europe.

The Government was warned...

I voted for the entry in the 1970s on purely economic terms. The EEC today is a very different animal. The EEC was born out of post-WW2 reconstruction as both a determination that there would never be another European war, an economic independence from US aid and to ensure that coal, steel and agriculture were supported by subsidy. How it has grown in size and function since!!!!. 

Is that why all our pits were more or less shut down and the strikes of the 70's took place. You are one of the first I have ever heard admit to voting to go in the EEC. Every adult I know and have met never admitted to that.
To me it appears the poorer countries took the money from the wealthier countris. Basically we got used or is that mugged?

The economic, social and strategic implications are hideously complicated, but for many in the UK it just doesn't meet their needs anymore.

It NEVER met out needs. We just got deeper into debt.

Our pits  closed down because it was cheaper to import coal from open-cast mines in Poland and from afar as Australia than mine our own deep mines. This was not an EU Issue. Not even the EU would support loss-making pits. This continues to leave blighted communities in Wales and northern England that 30 years of Labour and Tory government have done nothing about other than claim to have created X number of jobs. These jobs are unskilled and low-paid and hardly appeal to those who once had well-paid jobs underground.

Figures please... You see that would not really the proof. How do you import coal from Australia cheaper than mining it here?

During the LBC leader’s debate UKIP leader Nigel Farage claimed the UK’s membership fee of the EU is “£55 million a day” – the equivalent of about £20 billion in total per year. In fact with rebates the figure is nearer £12bn. Not a lot when our NHS budget is now over £100bn and £40bn is lost every year in tax avoidance.

Goffer is the term we used in selling during the late 70's for people who accepted whatever they were told on face value.
The tax man does not let anyone get away... Are you talking legitimate tax evasion or people ripping them off.
If the tax man like the DWP could actually tell you the amount they are being ripped off then they would not be, being ripped off would they?
The NHS budget includes the wages of the nhs staff and there really good pension when they retire.
The nhs is not paying that much out for treatents they are paying the costs of doctos and nurses and all health care staff included in that. Same as any firm... but allow anyone to be treated from any country for free and what do you expect?

The debate about the EU Sassy is not an economic one, but about the perceived loss of Westminster powers.

They should never have entered the EU and financially we would have been better off, if they had not.

[Elevenses81]

How do you import coal from Australia cheaper than mining it here?

Have you ever considered coming to your own conclusion? Yes, it  really was cheaper to ship a low-cost bulk item halfway around the world because of the huge costs involved in UK deep mining. Consider the logistics of extraction. Miners often had to work many km from the bottom of the shaft and their journey underground could take up to 90 minutes.  Arthur Scargill, if you remember, boasted at every opportunity that UK deep-mined coal was the cheapest in Europe when the UK was the only country which produced it. The rest of the world  had switched to open-cast mining after ww2.

[jeremyp]

Except the EU GDP is going down year on year. It is virtually dead in the water. We need to leave it.

It's in our interest to help the EU recover.  We need to stay in.

[jeremyp]

Figures please... You see that would not really the proof. How do you import coal from Australia cheaper than mining it here?

Australian coal is near the surface.  It's mined by stripping off the rock on top and then removing the coal with massive digging machines.  British coal is deep underground and has to be removed by people with drills. 

The proof that it is cheaper to ship Australian coal half way round the World is obvious:  the British mines have almost all gone. 

[Jack Knave]

I have in the past presented material/articles on the EU on this forum and have been abused for it even though I wanted people to comment and argue on what I had provided. Instead I got abuse by people who didn't even read it and yet even so passed judgement on what it had 'said'. I can't be bothered to type stuff on the EU that will only be totally ignored except for short reposts.

Jack, whilst I am sure that there have been those who have 'passed judgement' without reading (this, after all, seems to be relatively wide-spread across boards and threads), there have been many who have not only read but who have given considerable time to critique the points you have raised - often based on many years of their own study of this particular issue. 

Unfortunately, you don't often seem to have taken their expertise and understanding into account in your responses, simply assuming that your views are the 'correct' views to be held.

I don't know what heavenly forum you're on Hope but it definitely is not this one for I have never received cogent comments on articles I have posted on any EU issue.

[Jack Knave]

Except the EU GDP is going down year on year. It is virtually dead in the water. We need to leave it.

It's in our interest to help the EU recover.  We need to stay in.

No it's not. No we don't.

[Jack Knave]

 When  the  EU  disintegrates  I  will  have  the pleasure  of  telling  you  lot, "I  Told  You  So!" 

[jeremyp]

Except the EU GDP is going down year on year. It is virtually dead in the water. We need to leave it.

It's in our interest to help the EU recover.  We need to stay in.

No it's not. No we don't.

So you have no understanding of basic economics.

Let me put it in terms that a moronic idiot would understand:  if Europe is rich, they buy more stuff off us.

[Jack Knave]

Except the EU GDP is going down year on year. It is virtually dead in the water. We need to leave it.

It's in our interest to help the EU recover.  We need to stay in.

No it's not. No we don't.

So you have no understanding of basic economics.

Let me put it in terms that a moronic idiot would understand:  if Europe is rich, they buy more stuff off us.

I'm splitting my sides in gut wrenching cachinnations. Up to your usual low standards, Jeremy!!!

    

That's one big fucking massive IF.


You're the moronic economic idiot!!!