The Trinity

[BashfulAnthony]

That's OK but some do believe ALL in the Bible happened.

I don't. In fact I just watched a very well made film, EXODUS, last week & marvelled at how ANYONE can think good of this horrendous creature forcing people to worship it under pain of death & destruction ?!!?!?!?

 So now the film has become the bible.Do you know what verse this applied to,have you checked.

 No of course you have not checked.

~TW~

What the H are you on about?? What the film referred to??? Bit thick or what?

Chaps, would you please get back to the topic of the thread and purpose of this particular board. Ta.

You'll be lucky!   

[trippymonkey]

Sorry but what was it again

[~TW~]

That's OK but some do believe ALL in the Bible happened.

I don't. In fact I just watched a very well made film, EXODUS, last week & marvelled at how ANYONE can think good of this horrendous creature forcing people to worship it under pain of death & destruction ?!!?!?!?

 So now the film has become the bible.Do you know what verse this applied to,have you checked.

 No of course you have not checked.

~TW~

What the H are you on about?? What the film referred to??? Bit thick or what?

 Tripped monkey did you fall on your head  .When you go to the flicks stick to Donald Duck you might understand that.

 So back to the Trinity.

~TW~

[Hope]

Wasn't there a time when the 'ancients' believed in more than one god anyway?
Before they had the proverbial kicked out of them?

Nick

Yes, but only one people group believed in a single God with more than one 'element'. 

[Hope]

Why do some here all that it says in The Bible is literally or even figuratively true?

The bending over backwards antics on these forums is worthy of the best contortionists !!!!

Nick

They are, aren't they, Nick.  A circus owner would be impressed by some of those same skills that you've shown yourself capable of, too.

[Hope]

OH SORRY
Back to lazy english then.
Why does The Bible have to be ALL true? IE No mythology or stories?

Who says that it is all true, Nick?  Stories abound thoughout the pages of the material.  In the New Testament, they're sometimes known as parables; in other parts they'd deemed to be analogies.

[Hope]

That's OK but some do believe ALL in the Bible happened.

I have yet to meet a single person who believes that ALL the Bible is true - even here.  As I said before there is no argfument that the story of the Good Samaritan, or of the Prodigal Son, or the Shepherd looking for the lost sheep, etc. are just that: stories that have an underlying truth to learn.

[2Corrie]

Sassy, in your reply to TW you didn't address Revelation 1:11 and 17-18, what do you make of these?

[Spud]

...Although I don't have a problem with saying that the Father and the Son (and the Spirit) are both called by the same name (YHWH) and so are both, in that sense, God.

Isaiah 42:8 (KJ21) | In Context | Whole Chapter

8 I am the Lord; that is My name. And My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.

When Stephen looked up into heaven the writer of Acts tells us something very clearly.

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

What Glory do you think Stephen saw?

You have read what I wrote Spud and now you too are beginning to see what the Disciples taught and what man taught are two different things. THE Roman Catholic Church are the worse offenders. Hence Christs Church is built on two things... Spirit and Truth the words of God. So that man may go against the Church of Rome and it can fall. But the Church of Christ born of Spirit and Truth cannot be touched because the Kingdom is not of this world or manmade.

I thought that being at the right hand of God was a symbol for having all authority given to him. In my post I said that the word 'trinity' needs to be understood. I forgot that the word 'tri-une' is an adjective describing God. It seems pretty obvious that if Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, that makes him part of God, in the same way that anyone is part of his or her father.
Yet he is also fully human, and so has two identities- 'God' (being part of the godhead) and the Son of God.

[Alien]

...
Yet he is also fully human, and so has two identities- 'God' (being part of the godhead) and the Son of God.

I would suggest using the term "truly human" rather than "fully human" since "fully human" might be understood to mean "truly and only human". "Truly" is what the Nicene Creed uses. If interested, have a butchers at the Temptation of Christ thread #27. If you want to stick to what the Council of Chalcedon 451 AD used, it spoke of Jesus having two "natures" rather than two "identities". It may be that "identities" is suitable, but "natures" is the usual way of expressing it.

[Spud]

...
Yet he is also fully human, and so has two identities- 'God' (being part of the godhead) and the Son of God.

I would suggest using the term "truly human" rather than "fully human" since "fully human" might be understood to mean "truly and only human". "Truly" is what the Nicene Creed uses. If interested, have a butchers at the Temptation of Christ thread #27. If you want to stick to what the Council of Chalcedon 451 AD used, it spoke of Jesus having two "natures" rather than two "identities". It may be that "identities" is suitable, but "natures" is the usual way of expressing it.

Just realized that I said "It seems pretty obvious that if Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit". However, I should have said, "conceived by the power of the holy spirit". So what I then said, "that makes him part of God, in the same way that anyone is part of his or her father. " makes no sense. 

[Sassy]

People's egos bouncing off each other.
 
God must be tutting away up there. LOL

Appears you have the worldly view of everything.
EGOS? nothing to do with people disagreeing about what is God taught and what is man taught...

[Sassy]

One in substance with the Father. It means exactly what it says, that God is one, that the Son is not a created being and there was never a "time", even in eternity, when the Son (or the Holy Spirit for that matter) was not.

No it doesn't....


As God is a Spirit John 4:24King James Version (KJV)

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It is a fact God is a Spirit and Christ taught this. Worshipped in Spirit and Truth...
Jesus Christ is on the right hand of God.


55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

You cannot escape that Jesus Christ is NOT God and that Stephen sees by the power of the Holy Ghost what he witnessed and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Not literally standing on Gods hand was he?
But stood next God in heaven.

You can literally give biblical references from the NT but at no time do you have any reference from the OT to support what you think you know. And even the NT you take out of context.

I have nothing to say to rank heretics. Now go away.

You mean you have nothing to say because you only have what man has taught you and the references I have made show you it is wrong...
Heretic... what is laughable about that is the Church you belong to had the Borgias who  during the reign of Alexander VI, they were suspected of many crimes, including adultery, incest, simony, theft, bribery, and murder by arsenic poisoning....

You worship the madonna who is NOT God and fully Human. Only Rome worshipped the black madonna before Christianity and then used Mary to worship their Madonna again.

Mary is NOT the mother of God. She gave birth to Jesus Christ the Son of God., She was nothing more than a vessel. Blessed by God.
Luke clearly tells us that Christ was born by the power of God, that Mary had only given permission to be used for the purpose.

Before you go shouting heretic you might want to think about the Church you belong to.... It has the worst record for using it's (so called power) to commit sin against man and sin NOT and NOTHING TO DO with GOD.

Christs Church was neither established or built on such hypocrisy and evil. If YOU want to call names I suggest you come out from the false church first and try living in the true Church and faith of Jesus Christ.
And the tenets of that true Church....

[Sassy]

For the Trinitarians, what do you find the best way of trying to explain the Trinity to someone? The idea of "three centres of consciousness" in God seems to me to be a path well worth exploring, though I am aware that there is no complete way of explaining "how it all works." There are various illustrations of the Trinity, but do they do more harm than good? For the record I subscribe to a totally mainstream understanding of the Trinity (at least I think I do!), i.e. that God is one God of three persons (the best English word we can find to use here), that the Father is truly/fully God, the Son is truly/fully God, the Spirit is truly/fully God, but the Father is not the Son nor is he the Spirit etc.

I'm asking here how best to explain the Trinity rather than, here, argue whether the idea of the Trinity is correct. That might be better on a separate thread.

God in three persons... all seperate persons but from one source like a match stick split into three. God being the head and Christ and the Spirit being the other two parts. God being the main person over the other two parts. for without the head the match would not be a match.

Christ clearly made it clear that God sent him and God himself gave him the words to speak. In the Book of Daniel it is clear that ONLY the anti-christ would put himself above God and all that is God.

"Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.

Christ never at any time put himself above God or made himself equal to God because his power came from God.
God put all creation under him and that means he will eventually put himself back under God
 
The only way to fully understand the trinity is to be part of the life God provides through the existence of himself, the  Spirit and Jesus Christ.
The truth is that the Bible is the witness of God in man by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Prophets were Holy men of God because the Holy Spirit gave them the words to speak. They killed the Prophets as Christ taught. But we know also that Christ came so all men can be forgiven of their sins and by the baptism of the Spirit have a new life guided by God.
All one in Christ through the power and presence of the Holy Spirit.

 So Sass let us clear the Ground is Christ God,Yes or No.

  ~TW~

Christ is the Son of God.... In the OT and NT God was With Christ...

You fell under the same illusions as many people. Jesus Christ as the Jews will tells you about the Messiah was to be human fully human.
And Adam who was made by God was not God even when God breathed life into him.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.


God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?




King Jame Bible.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


You cannot change what is written... Christ and God are two different persons... God puts his words into his mouth.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

King James Bible
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.



As you can see Jesus told the truth, his words were Gods as God intended... You do not know your bible. If you want to question me then you first have to prove you know the truth.
You do not remain in the teachings of Christ. His teaching can be found in the OT but yours cannot....

[Anchorman]

ad_o (and the rest of us, for that matter) will be intensely interested that you think the Borgias ruled the Orthodox church, Sass.

[ad_orientem]

One in substance with the Father. It means exactly what it says, that God is one, that the Son is not a created being and there was never a "time", even in eternity, when the Son (or the Holy Spirit for that matter) was not.

No it doesn't....


As God is a Spirit John 4:24King James Version (KJV)

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It is a fact God is a Spirit and Christ taught this. Worshipped in Spirit and Truth...
Jesus Christ is on the right hand of God.


55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

You cannot escape that Jesus Christ is NOT God and that Stephen sees by the power of the Holy Ghost what he witnessed and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Not literally standing on Gods hand was he?
But stood next God in heaven.

You can literally give biblical references from the NT but at no time do you have any reference from the OT to support what you think you know. And even the NT you take out of context.

I have nothing to say to rank heretics. Now go away.

You mean you have nothing to say because you only have what man has taught you and the references I have made show you it is wrong...
Heretic... what is laughable about that is the Church you belong to had the Borgias who  during the reign of Alexander VI, they were suspected of many crimes, including adultery, incest, simony, theft, bribery, and murder by arsenic poisoning....

You worship the madonna who is NOT God and fully Human. Only Rome worshipped the black madonna before Christianity and then used Mary to worship their Madonna again.

Mary is NOT the mother of God. She gave birth to Jesus Christ the Son of God., She was nothing more than a vessel. Blessed by God.
Luke clearly tells us that Christ was born by the power of God, that Mary had only given permission to be used for the purpose.

Before you go shouting heretic you might want to think about the Church you belong to.... It has the worst record for using it's (so called power) to commit sin against man and sin NOT and NOTHING TO DO with GOD.

Christs Church was neither established or built on such hypocrisy and evil. If YOU want to call names I suggest you come out from the false church first and try living in the true Church and faith of Jesus Christ.
And the tenets of that true Church....

Firstly, I'm not a Roman Catholic. I'm an Orthodox Christian. And yes, that you don't believe in the Most Holy Trinity is against the holy scriptures, fathers and councils. Secondly, that you don't accept the new testament as scripture is further proof of your heresy.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made:
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
And ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;
And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;
And we believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.
We look for the Resurrection of the dead,
And the Life of the age to come. Amen.

This is the Apostolic faith as defined by the 318 Nicene fathers and 150 Constantinopolitan fathers who say with one voice with the whole Church that those who disagree are anathema.

[~TW~]

ad_o (and the rest of us, for that matter) will be intensely interested that you think the Borgias ruled the Orthodox church, Sass.

 Anchorman in my studies of the book of Revelation I have seen that God uses Evil to destroy Evil also he also hardens the hearts of some unbelievers which leaves them out on a limb.This can be seen in Revelation chap 9.In the case of Sass I think this has happened because of the demonic doctrines that comes from this person,I feel it is all to late with this person.

    11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

                ~TW~

[Anchorman]

I'm not disagreeing with you, TW.
Sass seems somewhat confused -
She uses a Trinitarian translation of Scripture to justify her somewhat unique take on the nature of God.
She claims allegiance to the CofE, which is unashamedly grounded in the doctrine of the Trinity.
And she claims either A, Ad-O is a member of the Roman Catholic Church, or
B, that Alexander VI was the ruler of the Orthodox church (I'm not sure which)

Either way, she's a crazy, mixed up kid!

[Sassy]

ad_o (and the rest of us, for that matter) will be intensely interested that you think the Borgias ruled the Orthodox church, Sass.

I suppose you believe that two of the popes from the Roman Catholic Church were NOT Borgias...
You are like the Pharisees and Sadducees with Christ... You think you know better than Christ and God. Makes no difference who was what in RC it is not the Church of Christ and in all truth YOU don't believe it to be so.

You remember the Ear-ticklers?


2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


You are such as above in that you appease those who do not have sound doctrine so be acceptable to all.   Roman Catholic church was simply Rome losing their power to the true Church of Christ and so keeping control of the people and the world by false teachings ensuring their false beliefs and black madonna kept to the forefront and conning millions... Both will come to an end because the sound doctrines of Christ show that even the false teachings cannot save you.
One way to God.... Jesus Christ and he states clearly...
"I (NOT the belief Trinity) is the way, the truth and the life."
The truth is you can only receive the Holy Spirit by believing in Jesus and so know both the Father and Son.

The truth is within now....

Jeremiah 31:31-34.

You and others are too frightened to allow the truth of Jesus to help you see that you have wandered away from the truth.
A mans faith has to stand on his own convictions not those of others.
Only Jesus Christ can save us... Not you, not the disciples and no teachings of Man. All have to be taught individually by Gods Spirit.
John 16:13 as the OT confirms.

[ad_orientem]

It is you who are following the doctrine of men, for you are your own pope. It also seems you don't know the difference between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but then I always knew you were thick.

[~TW~]

It is you who are following the doctrine of men, for you are your own pope. It also seems you don't know the difference between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but then I always knew you were thick.

 hi Bruv sometimes we have to say enough is enough and with Sass that is the case.

 Hi AM Keep up the good work be strong watch out, I am in Fort William at the end of May.

  ~TW~

[Anchorman]

ad_o (and the rest of us, for that matter) will be intensely interested that you think the Borgias ruled the Orthodox church, Sass.

I suppose you believe that two of the popes from the Roman Catholic Church were NOT Borgias...
You are like the Pharisees and Sadducees with Christ... You think you know better than Christ and God. Makes no difference who was what in RC it is not the Church of Christ and in all truth YOU don't believe it to be so.



Eh?
What I believe or not is immaterial. Two of the RC popes were indeed Borgias.
What ghas that to do with the denomination to which Ad_O belongs?
(Which, like the denomination to which you claim to adhere, is totally, completely and utterly Trinitarian....)
-

You remember the Ear-ticklers?


-
Is that a Unitarin schismatic sect.......one which specialises in judgemental proclamations, egomaniacs and self-righteousness?
-



2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


You are such as above in that you appease those who do not have sound doctrine so be acceptable to all.   Roman Catholic church was simply Rome losing their power to the true Church of Christ and so keeping control of the people and the world by false teachings ensuring their false beliefs and black madonna kept to the forefront and conning millions... Both will come to an end because the sound doctrines of Christ show that even the false teachings cannot save you.
One way to God.... Jesus Christ and he states clearly...
"I (NOT the belief Trinity) is the way, the truth and the life."
The truth is you can only receive the Holy Spirit by believing in Jesus and so know both the Father and Son.

The truth is within now....

Jeremiah 31:31-34.



-
Ah....you belong to the aforementioned 'Ear tickler Unitarians-r-us" sect, then?
-

You and others are too frightened to allow the truth of Jesus to help you see that you have wandered away from the truth.
A mans faith has to stand on his own convictions not those of others.
Only Jesus Christ can save us... Not you, not the disciples and no teachings of Man. All have to be taught individually by Gods Spirit.
John 16:13 as the OT confirms.



-

That would be the author of the Gospel who set down Jesus' claims to Deity, then?

[Sassy]

It is you who are following the doctrine of men, for you are your own pope. It also seems you don't know the difference between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but then I always knew you were thick.

Look at your reply A0,

The Pope is NOT Gods representative on earth the Holy Spirit is the person sent to the Church to lead and teach. All popes are and have been manmade representatives of teachings not given by God.
One day you will stand before God and he will tell you himself that NO pope was ordained or given by him to represent him.
That Peter was not a Pope and that ONLY God can forgive sins through Jesus Christ. Hence Christ said: " YOUR sins are forgiven."
No pope represents God and no Pope speaks for God.

The Jewish high priests did, till the final high priest Jesus Christ.
To God there is no one more special than anyone else.

Peter himself said:
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.



Look at your reply...

It has nothing from the scriptures does it?
It has nothing to counteract what the scriptures and Christ himself taught.
So why not wake up to the truth.

You can huff and puff but the Church of Christ is built on solid rock and it ain't gonna fall down for the makeshift one you believe in.

Jesus Christ is LORD of all and the RC are just counterfeit.
They put a man as a representative of God on earth.
The true Church is Spirit and Truth and the RC cannot prevail against it...

[Anchorman]

The ;true Church;, Sass, are those who accept Christ Jesus - God Incarnate - for who He says He is.
They are members of umpteen sundered denoominations, with just as many governing authorities...but they have one thing in common: their acceptance of Christ Jesus, God Incarnate, as LORD.

[Sassy]

It is you who are following the doctrine of men, for you are your own pope. It also seems you don't know the difference between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but then I always knew you were thick.

 hi Bruv sometimes we have to say enough is enough and with Sass that is the case.

 Hi AM Keep up the good work be strong watch out, I am in Fort William at the end of May.

  ~TW~

All bluster and all revealing that you cannot counteract or disprove what I have said...
We can see the dust as you run away.... God isn't fooled. You have been told the truth now you will answer on the day of judgement as to why you believed something not taught in the OT.