The Trinity

[Alien]

Also remember a few weeks ago Sass tells us she is C of E and in the other thread,she tells us when the Russians are marching down the hills of Jerusalem that is the end of the world. Strange teachings from the C of E, or as Sass lost the plot.

 ~TW~

And the moon landings were a fake? (Hint that is not CofE teaching .

[2Corrie]

Sass you really are a mess,and I see little hope for you in this brainwashed state. Just a little verse here that explodes your myth,but you will not see, why it does, explode your myth.

 See if you can fathom it out.                          16 I, Jesus, have sent My messenger (angel) to you to witness and to give you assurance of these things for the churches (assemblies). I am the Root (the Source) and the Offspring of David, the radiant and brilliant Morning Star.

   ~TW~

It says Jesus not God. That there is the difference..

Jesus came down in the flesh not God.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time.

Why is it you cannot see the truth.

Then why did Jacob say that he had seen God face to face and yet had lived?  You really aren't getting it 

[Spud]

Then why did Jacob say that he had seen God face to face and yet had lived?

As well as the seventy elders (Exodus 24:9), Manoah and his wife (Judges 13:22), Solomon (1 Kings 11:9), Isaiah (Isaiah 6:5), and Moses (Numbers 12:8 ).

[DaveM]

Then why did Jacob say that he had seen God face to face and yet had lived?

As well as the seventy elders (Exodus 24:9), Manoah and his wife (Judges 13:22), Solomon (1 Kings 11:9), Isaiah (Isaiah 6:5), and Moses (Numbers 12:.

You can add Gideon to that list as well (Judges 6:22-23)

[Sassy]

Also remember a few weeks ago Sass tells us she is C of E and in the other thread,she tells us when the Russians are marching down the hills of Jerusalem that is the end of the world. Strange teachings from the C of E, or as Sass lost the plot.

 ~TW~

It is one of the oldest prophetic prophesies believed to be from Daniel about the end times. The King of the North etc. I threw it in, but your learning is not advanced. Asking questions about things you do not know. It was also foretold by some Christians, one in particular about the one money system like the euro by this person in the 70's and the chip they now use in animals being placed under the skin in humans hand and head eventually.

The truth is you laugh and mock because you know nothing about the end times. You are really searching to widen that knowledge but getting nowhere fast.

You think and follow your human senses instead of listening for God in your inner man and being. Even the word of God tells us...

King James Bible
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

You don't mock me, you mock the God and the very word of God, you claim to believe in. Everytime you speak out against me...Gods words show you have no real faith in his Words AT ALL.

[Sassy]

Sass you really are a mess,and I see little hope for you in this brainwashed state. Just a little verse here that explodes your myth,but you will not see, why it does, explode your myth.

 See if you can fathom it out.                          16 I, Jesus, have sent My messenger (angel) to you to witness and to give you assurance of these things for the churches (assemblies). I am the Root (the Source) and the Offspring of David, the radiant and brilliant Morning Star.

   ~TW~

It says Jesus not God. That there is the difference..

Jesus came down in the flesh not God.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time.

Why is it you cannot see the truth.

Then why did Jacob say that he had seen God face to face and yet had lived?  You really aren't getting it 

The book of Genesis says Jacob wrestled a man.
Read the chapter. Though Jacob spoke with God in that place the man never claimed to be God. In fact  the man speaks about God.



24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.


It says he wrestled with a man is that wrong? Would it not say he wrestled with God if it was God?

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

The man never referred to himself as God he said you have power with God and with men.

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Where in the verses before does Jacob see God face to face. It was dark and we know that no man has seen God face to face and can live.

Stephen sees God and the Son as he dies.

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

King James Bible
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Jacob met with God just as Moses did. They both met him presence to presence/face to face but none saw his face.

It was dark with Jacob he wrestled a man. But he was in the presence of God just as we know when Jesus was here God was with him and all who saw Christ were in the presence of God at the same time.

Think about it... God is not a liar.

King James Bible
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

They spoke to God presence to presence God being there speaking for himself. But at no time did they see God.

The disciples were JEWS who knew those scriptures off by heart. Even they knew that NO man had seen God. But Like Moses Christ was given authority as being God when he spoke unto us the words of God.

You need to study all the references and have a complete picture. Yes God to spoke to these people in their presence...face to face so to speak but NO man has actually seen God and lived.

[Sassy]

Then why did Jacob say that he had seen God face to face and yet had lived?

As well as the seventy elders (Exodus 24:9), Manoah and his wife (Judges 13:22), Solomon (1 Kings 11:9), Isaiah (Isaiah 6:5), and Moses (Numbers 12:8 ).

What do you think it all means?
Which came first... Jacob or Moses?
Was the law present before Moses or after?
What is impossible for man is not impossible for God.
Whose words do we believe? We know that man has free will. Does Genesis tell the truth?

Who is telling the truth? If God says no man may see his face and live. Did Jacob mean he had seen Gods face when he said he had spoke to him face to face.
Did these people seeing the evidence of the presence of God actually behold his face? And the disciple John was he born of the Spirit? Was he speaking the truth when he said:


King James Bible
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jesus said:

King James Bible
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Jesus said only he had seen the Father God.

What you have to do is reason this through. God says no man can see his FACE and live and Christ says no man hath seen the Father except for himself.
Are they confusing being the actual presence of God with actually seeing the face and person God?

Tell me what God looks like from the events of those who witnessed his presence.

[2Corrie]

Not to mention Abraham in the plains of Mamre. It was definitely the LORD that appeared to him there. How can this be Sass, are you confused? He that has not he Son has not the Father.

[Sassy]

Not to mention Abraham in the plains of Mamre. It was definitely the LORD that appeared to him there. How can this be Sass, are you confused? He that has not he Son has not the Father.

Again you are deliberately IGNORING the facts.
You see that NO man has seen God. No one denies they have spoken with him.

YOU are unable to discern the scriptures and deliberately ignoring the facts.
You are the person worse than confused you lack the truth.

[Spud]

Then why did Jacob say that he had seen God face to face and yet had lived?

As well as the seventy elders (Exodus 24:9), Manoah and his wife (Judges 13:22), Solomon (1 Kings 11:9), Isaiah (Isaiah 6:5), and Moses (Numbers 12:8 ).

What do you think it all means?

Since Jesus implies that he existed before Abraham I think that these appearances of God were something to do with Jesus.

Which came first... Jacob or Moses?

Jacob.

Was the law present before Moses or after?

The written law was not given until Moses.

What is impossible for man is not impossible for God.

Agreed.

Whose words do we believe? We know that man has free will. Does Genesis tell the truth?

Yes.

Who is telling the truth? If God says no man may see his face and live. Did Jacob mean he had seen Gods face when he said he had spoke to him face to face.

There is quite a lot about being spared having seen God face to face. Eg. Jacob at Peniel, the seventy elders at Sinai, Israel at Sinai (Deut. 5:4), and Isaiah in the temple.

Did these people seeing the evidence of the presence of God actually behold his face?

No, they either met a human manifestation of God, or they saw the glory with the fire inside (not God himself but a manifestation of Him).

And the disciple John was he born of the Spirit? Was he speaking the truth when he said:


King James Bible
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I suspect John sees Jesus as similar to the man with whom Jacob wrestled, ie a human manifestation of God. (The Father is not physical, He is invisible)

Jesus said:

King James Bible
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Jesus said only he had seen the Father God.

What you have to do is reason this through. God says no man can see his FACE and live and Christ says no man hath seen the Father except for himself.
Are they confusing being the actual presence of God with actually seeing the face and person God?

Tell me what God looks like from the events of those who witnessed his presence.

[2Corrie]

Not to mention Abraham in the plains of Mamre. It was definitely the LORD that appeared to him there. How can this be Sass, are you confused? He that has not he Son has not the Father.

Again you are deliberately IGNORING the facts.
You see that NO man has seen God. No one denies they have spoken with him.

YOU are unable to discern the scriptures and deliberately ignoring the facts.
You are the person worse than confused you lack the truth.

Sorry but you are confused because you don't understand the whole truth. You keep parroting the same scripture, but it is plain to see there are contradictions with that scripture which cannot be resolved until you accept that Jesus is YHWH. Read Genesis 18 again, it's so obvious.

[ad_orientem]

Very definitely a theophany, the three angels being the three persons of the Most Holy Trinity.

[Sassy]

Then why did Jacob say that he had seen God face to face and yet had lived?

As well as the seventy elders (Exodus 24:9), Manoah and his wife (Judges 13:22), Solomon (1 Kings 11:9), Isaiah (Isaiah 6:5), and Moses (Numbers 12:8 ).

What do you think it all means?

Since Jesus implies that he existed before Abraham I think that these appearances of God were something to do with Jesus.

Well according to the bible our names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Well before Abraham. Does that mean we existed before Abraham?
The Lambs book of the living being in existence from the foundation of the world does that mean before Abraham Christ and we were?

In God and before God, all these things existed before any of them happened.
God knowing the END from the beginning.
But Jesus Christ said:

King James Bible
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.


It isn't about what we think it is about truth.

Which came first... Jacob or Moses?

Jacob.

Was the law present before Moses or after?

The written law was not given until Moses.

What is impossible for man is not impossible for God.

Agreed.

Whose words do we believe? We know that man has free will. Does Genesis tell the truth?

Yes.

Who is telling the truth? If God says no man may see his face and live. Did Jacob mean he had seen Gods face when he said he had spoke to him face to face.

There is quite a lot about being spared having seen God face to face. Eg. Jacob at Peniel, the seventy elders at Sinai, Israel at Sinai (Deut. 5:4), and Isaiah in the temple.

Did these people seeing the evidence of the presence of God actually behold his face?

No, they either met a human manifestation of God, or they saw the glory with the fire inside (not God himself but a manifestation of Him).

And the disciple John was he born of the Spirit? Was he speaking the truth when he said:


King James Bible
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I suspect John sees Jesus as similar to the man with whom Jacob wrestled, ie a human manifestation of God. (The Father is not physical, He is invisible)

Jesus said:

King James Bible
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Jesus said only he had seen the Father God.

What you have to do is reason this through. God says no man can see his FACE and live and Christ says no man hath seen the Father except for himself.
Are they confusing being the actual presence of God with actually seeing the face and person God?

Tell me what God looks like from the events of those who witnessed his presence.

The truth is Spud God has always seen the end from the beginning. He has made known the end from the beginning. But he has not told anyone, not even Jesus Christ the day and hour of his return.
Had Jesus been God, then he could not help but know because God does not and cannot change.

Jesus was a human being for God shares his Glory as the one true God with no one. The one truth which shows God was with Jesus who was a Holy Thing and who was to be known/called the Son of God.

Only the One true God knows everything...

[Sassy]

Not to mention Abraham in the plains of Mamre. It was definitely the LORD that appeared to him there. How can this be Sass, are you confused? He that has not he Son has not the Father.

Again you are deliberately IGNORING the facts.
You see that NO man has seen God. No one denies they have spoken with him.

YOU are unable to discern the scriptures and deliberately ignoring the facts.
You are the person worse than confused you lack the truth.

Sorry but you are confused because you don't understand the whole truth. You keep parroting the same scripture, but it is plain to see there are contradictions with that scripture which cannot be resolved until you accept that Jesus is YHWH. Read Genesis 18 again, it's so obvious.

That would be to call GOD a liar. You don't know your scripture the same as you have NO scripture to support calling Jesus God. As I have just proved God knows everything but Christ does not. Because only God is omnipresent...in all places at all times. Had Christ been omnipresent and knowing all the end from the beginning then he would have told the Disciples the day and hour of his return.

The truth is you are not being honest with yourself or me. You think what you wrote is hidden from the atheist but God and men who know Christ and the truth can see you have no argument and no scripture to support anything about what you claim. In fact the scripture of the anti-christ the son of perdition proves you wrong. But you refuse to see it.

The fact is the LORD spoke to these people they were in the presence of God but none of them saw God.
You need to ask the Jews why they too believe no one has seen God and why the bible/Torah does not mean what you are trying to make it say.


Abraham saw three men he did not see God. God spoke/appeared to Abraham

Numbers 12:6-8

6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

1 Timothy 6:15-16

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

What does God actually look like. You see God has spoken with men throughout history the glory of his presence but never has any man seen God in his true presence and glory.

You can make what you will of it. But the disciples and Jews were not taught that any man has actually seen the one TRUE God in his real form.

Jesus Christ, NEVER claimed to be God or wanted to be worshipped above God.
His first commandment is very clear... If you love Christ you can ONLY show this by LOVING GOD first with all your heart, mind, body and soul.  If you love Christ more than you do not obey Christ. If you worship Christ as God then you break the first commandment. If you teach others to do this then you do not love your neighbour and break his second commandment.

God first, and your neighbour...
As John says... If you cannot love your brother whom you do see, you cannot love God who you don't see.

What is love?

[Sassy]

Very definitely a theophany, the three angels being the three persons of the Most Holy Trinity.

Is is God in three persons not God is three persons...

You need to think about this.... God is everywhere before the foundation and creation of the world. He is the ONLY true immortal. SO explain what it means to be human.

[ad_orientem]

Very definitely a theophany, the three angels being the three persons of the Most Holy Trinity.

Is is God in three persons not God is three persons...

You need to think about this.... God is everywhere before the foundation and creation of the world. He is the ONLY true immortal. SO explain what it means to be human.

God is three persons. The persons are distinct and not to be confused, yet there is only one divine nature, each person being fully God as to substance. This is basic Trinitarian theology which you are obviously ignorant of. Otherwise you would know that Christ is God instead of holding to the heresies of Arius and all the other arch-heretics.

[Spud]

Hi Sassy

Message 137- I see your point about John 8:58. Jesus did, after all, just say that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, implying that Jesus is talking about that in verse 58. (The Jews' reply to Jesus in verse 57 seems rather obscure). But how would you interpret John 12:41? Is John saying that it was Christ whom Isaiah saw in the temple?

[Sassy]

Very definitely a theophany, the three angels being the three persons of the Most Holy Trinity.

Is is God in three persons not God is three persons...

You need to think about this.... God is everywhere before the foundation and creation of the world. He is the ONLY true immortal. SO explain what it means to be human.

God is three persons. The persons are distinct and not to be confused, yet there is only one divine nature, each person being fully God as to substance. This is basic Trinitarian theology which you are obviously ignorant of. Otherwise you would know that Christ is God instead of holding to the heresies of Arius and all the other arch-heretics.

No! God in three persons and that means that we are all one in Christ as Christ and God are one. All separate persons but all one in the same way as Christ and God by the power of Gods Spirit.

No where does the bible says God, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit make up one God
In fact Jesus says blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. How can you be forgiven blasphemy of Christ or God the Father but not the Holy Spirit if all are God?

Christ made it clear his words were Spirit. Luke made it clear that Jesus was born by the power of Holy Spirit and the highest power God.


35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

You disobey Gods will if call Christ anything but the Son of God.

You are trying so hard to make Christ God. But God shows that it was NEVER his intention for Christ to be known as God.

Peter tells it as it is...

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

How easy it is to believe a lie when following the teachings of man. How easy for it to embed so that it becomes a sin against the God you claim to love.

God was with Christ as he was with Moses. Just as men were to heed the words from Moses given by God... So they were to heed the words of the Messiah given by God. For God was with Christ as he was with Moses.

[Sassy]

Hi Sassy

Message 137- I see your point about John 8:58. Jesus did, after all, just say that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, implying that Jesus is talking about that in verse 58. (The Jews' reply to Jesus in verse 57 seems rather obscure). But how would you interpret John 12:41? Is John saying that it was Christ whom Isaiah saw in the temple?

King James 2000 Bible
God, who at many times and in various manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,


To be all God they would have to be equal in all things and ways.
But Christ is not equal to God as he does not know everything and God does.
Only the Father knows the hour of his return.


He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The Church built on the belief Christ is the Son of God.

[ad_orientem]

I knew you were a heretic.

[Sassy]

I knew you were a heretic.

Only by manmade and worldly standards...

My Saviour says the same as I do...


17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

You see Christ said he ascended to his God and my God.
So why argue about such little details when you see the Son of God says he ascended to HIS God and our God...

We all grow up believing what sometimes we never question. But when we read the bible as God intends us to read it, with the living God before our eyes. WELL then we know that Christ never said he was God and never said you should believe he was God.

[~TW~]

I actually had a JW prove to me that Jesus is God today!!!!
When talking about who we should pray to the JW asked; "So Was David Praying to an ANGEL at 1Cron 21:16"
That verse says in the NWT "When David raised his eyes, he saw Jehovah’s angel standing between the earth and the heavens with a drawn sword+ in his hand extended toward Jerusalem. David and the elders, covered with sackcloth,+ at once threw themselves down with their faces to the ground.+
Now when I read this verse I can certainly see David and the elders bowing down to Jehovah's Angel (or the Angel of the Lord), but not praying to him.
The JW was kind enough to provide the answer and posted verse 17.
17 David said to the true God: “Was it not I who said to number the people? I am the one who sinned, and I am the one who did wrong;+ but these sheep—what have they done? O Jehovah my God, let your hand, please, come against me and my father’s house; but do not bring this scourge on your people.”+
So, the JW, in saying that David was praying to an angel, provides me with a verse that says he "said to the true God..." So if David was praying to this Angel, the writer seems to be saying that David was praying to the true God.
The Watchtower Society also says that Jehovah's Angel (the Angel of the Lord) is none other than God's firstborn son.. who is that? Well of course it's Jesus.
In their Watchtower article from September 15th 2010 entitled "Your Leader is One, the Christ" the Society say:
2, 3. What active role did God’s Son play in Israel?
2 Centuries before the founding of the Christian congregation, Jehovah had an angelic leader over his people Israel. After bringing the Israelites out of Egypt, Jehovah told them: “Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon your transgression; because my name is within him.” (Ex. 23:20, 21) It is reasonable to believe that this angel, who had ‘Jehovah’s name within him,’ was God’s firstborn Son.
So let us sumarise
1. David prays to an angel in 1 Chronicles 21 16-17 and the Bible writer calls this angel the true God.
2. The Watchtower Society calls this Angel God's firstborn Son
Therefore Jesus must be God.
Thank you Mr JW. You have been very helpful.

~TW~

[Spud]

It looks like he unwittingly proved that, since God's firstborn son = the angel of God (according to the WT) = addressed as God, therefore the Son is God.
Did he agree?

[Spud]

It is reasonable to believe that this angel, who had ‘Jehovah’s name within him,’ was God’s firstborn Son

(Quoting the WT in TW's post)
But this doesn't prove that the angel of God is God's Son, they have only said it is reasonable to believe it.

Does anyone know if this can be properly shown from the Bible?

[Spud]

You disobey Gods will if call Christ anything but the Son of God.

What about calling Him YHWH? There are a lot of NT passages in which an OT reference to YHWH is quoted in reference to Christ. For example, 1 Peter 2:7,8 which applies Isaiah 8:13,14 to Christ, implying that Christ is YHWH.