The Trinity

[Sassy]

Sass you ask--------------Isn't all flesh created?
Wasn't Christ a human being?
Did God speak about him and hence he became the word made flesh the word below made flesh?

The answer is read this-------------   2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So the bible says you are wrong.

                  ~TW~

The OT does not teach that and we know if it isn't in the OT it is to be rejected.
Pauls own teachings or is Pauls teachings also falling on deaf ears?

It is referring to God.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

It is clear that GOD created the heaven and earth. That the word is God and it was his word which spoke everything into being.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This refers to God himself as you can see by reading Genesis 1 for yourself.

Gods word has always come to man through the Holy Spirit and Gods Spirit was with him at the beginning. The word being there before the foundation of the world.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God gave all things life that is living and his word is the light to our feet.

King James Bible
. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Christ is the one John bears witness to. Jesus is the light of Gods word the culmination of all his promises and the reason for the writings of the Prophets give to them by the Holy Ghost who spake through them.


8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


Christ is the light of the world. Because he brings the truth of Gods word to all mankind the final truth which shows all that God has tried to teach man through his word throughout time from the very beginning.


You need to check the OT to know what is truth and what is not acceptable by God. God does NOT share his glory as God with anyone.
Christ said if you love me you will obey my commandments, he has made his first commandment as this:

King James Bible
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

To love God with all your mind is to obey what he teaches.

King James Bible
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

As you can see God can speak also for himself. He spoke out about Jesus and he called him his beloved Son. He said to listen to him. Doesn't he command the same in Deut 18:18.

You can hum and ha about everything but you cannot change what the true God taught or has said. A true son obeys his Father as Christ taught.

[ad_orientem]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Clearly Christ is God incarnate as the scriptures say but you are blinded by the doctrines of men and a follower of the wicked Arius.

[2Corrie]

I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another,Nor My praise to graven images

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

[ad_orientem]

The second part is from the gospel (according to St. John, if I remember correctly).

[Anchorman]

2Corrie's spot on (as usual).
The text is from John 17, vs 4 & 5.



BTW, I forget......Sass has, as yet, not clearly answered the question put to her.
Was Jesus created?
If so, when?

[~TW~]

2Corrie's spot on (as usual).
The text is from John 17, vs 4 & 5.



BTW, I forget......Sass has, as yet, not clearly answered the question put to her.
Was Jesus created?
If so, when?

 Sass it would be nice if you could show us the scriptures that relate to the creation of Jesus.

  ~TW~

[Sassy]

"HE WAS CONCEIVED BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY"

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

The Prophets of the OT all referred to Christ and we know Christ summed all the teachings of the Prophets and the Law into two commandments.
It was by Gods word all things that are created were created.

God promised the Israelites to raise them up a Prophet from among their own brethren. Which means Christ was made flesh he was the Word made flesh because he exhibited all that was in the OT in thought, word and deed. Obeying Gods word and obeying the law (whole) and teachings of the Prophets.

When you understand this about Christ...


King James Bible
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The word of God was all about Christ the word made flesh. In that he exhibited every truth that God has written about him through the Prophets and law.
Christ was the culmination and the reason for the words God gave unto men through the Prophets via the Spirit.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


The disciples understood and knew that Gods word had now been made flesh. That what God had written and the Prophets preached has now been fulfilled. The promises of God are all YES in Christ because Christ is Gods word now in flesh.

A human being without sin promised from God since the beginning and the culmination of all the TEACHINGS of the Prophets and the LAW.

So to die as a human being Christ had to be Flesh.
Just as Adam was made flesh formed from Soil and life breathed in from God.

All humans are from the breath of God. Christ is no different he was born by Gods word and the breath breathed into man by God. All life proceeds from the Father.

All things have happened where Father and the Spirit have been.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

The power of the Holy Spirit is there on all three occasions. At the beginning of creation. The conception of John and Jesus Christ.
The creed says the Holy Spirit is the Lord and giver and life.
And it is a fact that Christ came to baptise with the Holy Spirit.


King James Bible
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

King James Bible
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


King James Bible
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

As you can see Christ was created man. He became flesh as all men became flesh by the power of Gods words.

We are flesh and yet we are children of God because:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

All things that were created were spoken into being.... Even Christ whose words came from God by the power of the Holy Spirit.

" My words are SPIRIT and they are life."

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

All things come from thee O Lord and of thine own do we give thee.

Jesus was fully human as his suffering shows that in flesh and by Gods word as all humans are born by the power of Gods words and we see that the Holy Spirit is called the Lord and giver of life. His presence in man provides light and life.

Why not show what God teaches in his word rather than what man has taught you.

[ad_orientem]

We all have shown you using the sacred scriptures. Here is mine again:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Clearly the sacred scriptures say that Christ is God.

St. John the Baptist's mother also testifies to this:

Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

The Lord himself says:

Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

And in the Apocalypse:

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth, who hath loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father, to him be glory and empire for ever and ever. Amen. Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.

And again:

And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write, for these words are most faithful and true. And he said to me: It is done. I am Alpha and Omega; the beginning and the end.

And again:

Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works. I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

[~TW~]

Thank you A_O that reply is superb.

    ~TW~

[2Corrie]

Instead of parroting the same scriptures why not address out points Sass. God does not share His glory, how be it then that the Lord can say

"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."


btw, none of us denies that Jesus came in the flesh 

[~TW~]

  For Sass

                                                           http://www.bibleprobe.com/jesus-is-God.htm

                                                ~TW~

[Sassy]

We all have shown you using the sacred scriptures. Here is mine again:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

It isn't scripture. Christ and the Prophets never referred to is and nothing and I mean nothing was given in the OT to say God would add to his scriptures.
It does not say Christ was God made flesh. But the words God spoke in Deuteronomy now became flesh...

THAT IS CHAPTER 18;18  and you need to go and read the OT because in the NT the gospels Christ teaches that eternal life is to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent.
John 17:3King James Version (KJV)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

It is the words of Christ we are to accept.


Clearly the sacred scriptures say that Christ is God.

No the true scriptures show that the Son of God would be a Prophet from the people own.

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

St. John the Baptist's mother also testifies to this:

Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Elizabeth, knew Mary was carrying the Messiah. But this is not scripture and is not a testament at all of your false teaching. He does not say Christ is God.
In fact God himself spoke out and said this...


King James Bible
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


That is Gd SPEAKING and saying Christ is his Son and he is pleased with him.

The Lord himself says:

Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

That is simply Christ saying he existed before Abraham.

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


Now in content you see Christ was NOT calling himself I am.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Abraham, knew about Christ before Christ came. Was Christ not promised. Didn't everyone who knew God know about Christs coming.
You need to ask God to guide your thoughts. Not it is NT and note that Christ has clearly told everyone in verse 42 that he was sent from God and came from God. Christ NEVER declared himself to be God, The OT does not declare Christ to be God, But God speaks through him.

And in the Apocalypse:

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth, who hath loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father, to him be glory and empire for ever and ever. Amen. Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.

And again:

And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write, for these words are most faithful and true. And he said to me: It is done. I am Alpha and Omega; the beginning and the end.

And again:

Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works. I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

The book of Revelations clearly states that GOD GAVE this Prophecy to Christ. to give to his angel to give to John

King James Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So God told Jesus what to say to the angel and to give it to John.

The message came from God about himself and Christ. Seems you do not follow the protocol.

[ad_orientem]

Just dismiss the scripture then. You're no better than a Marcionite. You shouldn't be on this board. You're not a Christian. Go away.

[2Corrie]

We all have shown you using the sacred scriptures. Here is mine again:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

It isn't scripture. Christ and the Prophets never referred to is and nothing and I mean nothing was given in the OT to say God would add to his scriptures.
It does not say Christ was God made flesh. But the words God spoke in Deuteronomy now became flesh...

THAT IS CHAPTER 18;18  and you need to go and read the OT because in the NT the gospels Christ teaches that eternal life is to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent.
John 17:3King James Version (KJV)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

It is the words of Christ we are to accept.

Like the words "before Abraham was I am" ?

And the words "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."



and I take umbrage at you using the NT to prove points 'it's not scripture'...   

[jakswan]

Just dismiss the scripture then. You're no better than a Marcionite. You shouldn't be on this board. You're not a Christian. Go away.

Sass is quoting scripture and you are failing to deal with it by the looks of it.

[ad_orientem]

Just dismiss the scripture then. You're no better than a Marcionite. You shouldn't be on this board. You're not a Christian. Go away.

Sass is quoting scripture and you are failing to deal with it by the looks of it.

No, she is dismissing it. I have already given plenty of examples from the scriptures which show that Christ is God. It suits her to dismiss the NT because it proves her to be a follower of wicked doctrines. As for the OT, it must br read in the light of the NT, otherwise it is like looking through a veil.

[Sassy]

Just dismiss the scripture then. You're no better than a Marcionite. You shouldn't be on this board. You're not a Christian. Go away.

Sass is quoting scripture and you are failing to deal with it by the looks of it.

No, she is dismissing it. I have already given plenty of examples from the scriptures which show that Christ is God. It suits her to dismiss the NT because it proves her to be a follower of wicked doctrines. As for the OT, it must br read in the light of the NT, otherwise it is like looking through a veil.

No you have not. And you have not used anything from the OT to support anything you wrote. I have done both. Quoted NT supported by OT. You have ignored the replies to you even those which show even Christ saying the One true God and himself are two separate persons. Jakswan is right you have NOT given any scriptures which support your claim. NONE. ZERO. ZILCH... Clinging to straws because you have NOTHING to support your claim but a Church whose foundations were not in Christ and committed some of the worst evils since the world began.

Christs church is TRUTH and SPIRIT based in the true love of God the Father. Not mankind who tried to use the truth for their own evil twisted hunger for power of people. God does not give power over people or to control people. He empowers people to be his people full of truth, grace, love through the Spirit.

You may have left your original church but Christs Church does not have walls and has one teacher, the Holy Spirit. You cannot find anything in the WORDS of Christ or even the OT to support what you claim. That is fact.

[ekim]

So far, it looks as if Sass has the better argument, unless Jesus was schizoid and given to praying to himself as Elohim.

[ad_orientem]

Just dismiss the scripture then. You're no better than a Marcionite. You shouldn't be on this board. You're not a Christian. Go away.

Sass is quoting scripture and you are failing to deal with it by the looks of it.

No, she is dismissing it. I have already given plenty of examples from the scriptures which show that Christ is God. It suits her to dismiss the NT because it proves her to be a follower of wicked doctrines. As for the OT, it must br read in the light of the NT, otherwise it is like looking through a veil.

No you have not. And you have not used anything from the OT to support anything you wrote. I have done both. Quoted NT supported by OT. You have ignored the replies to you even those which show even Christ saying the One true God and himself are two separate persons. Jakswan is right you have NOT given any scriptures which support your claim. NONE. ZERO. ZILCH... Clinging to straws because you have NOTHING to support your claim but a Church whose foundations were not in Christ and committed some of the worst evils since the world began.

Christs church is TRUTH and SPIRIT based in the true love of God the Father. Not mankind who tried to use the truth for their own evil twisted hunger for power of people. God does not give power over people or to control people. He empowers people to be his people full of truth, grace, love through the Spirit.

You may have left your original church but Christs Church does not have walls and has one teacher, the Holy Spirit. You cannot find anything in the WORDS of Christ or even the OT to support what you claim. That is fact.

The Word of God says:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Checkmate, pal! Keep to your manmade doctrines and no doubt you will join Arius in the depths of hell.

[trippymonkey]

NT or OT?

[Hope]

So far, it looks as if Sass has the better argument, unless Jesus was schizoid and given to praying to himself as Elohim.

The problem is that Sass's argument actually contradicts Jesus' own teaching and the teaching of the Old Testament.  He wasn't schizoid or given to paying to himself; he was speaking to element of the Godhead that remained in heaven but whose nature he was 100% part of.

[ad_orientem]

Just because it wasn't defined before Nicaea it doesn't mean it wasn't believed. It also ignores how these things are defined, which is usually in response to a heresy. in this case Arius' wicked doctrine and I have no doubt that he is in the depths of hell with all the other heretics and schismatics. The belief in the Trinity is most definitely apostolic as the council itself confirms and all the subsequent councils.

[ekim]

So far, it looks as if Sass has the better argument, unless Jesus was schizoid and given to praying to himself as Elohim.

The problem is that Sass's argument actually contradicts Jesus' own teaching and the teaching of the Old Testament.  He wasn't schizoid or given to paying to himself; he was speaking to element of the Godhead that remained in heaven but whose nature he was 100% part of.

What's a Godhead?  I don't recall any words of Jesus saying that he was speaking to it.  He apparently said to somebody 'Why do you call me good ... only God is good' which seems to indicate that he did not think that his nature was identical to that of his God's.  Even if it was identical, I can't see that this would mean that Jesus was God.  I think more research is needed into the meaning of 'Elohim', it might give an indication why Joshua and Elohim are not identical.

[ad_orientem]

So far, it looks as if Sass has the better argument, unless Jesus was schizoid and given to praying to himself as Elohim.

The problem is that Sass's argument actually contradicts Jesus' own teaching and the teaching of the Old Testament.  He wasn't schizoid or given to paying to himself; he was speaking to element of the Godhead that remained in heaven but whose nature he was 100% part of.

What's a Godhead?  I don't recall any words of Jesus saying that he was speaking to it.  He apparently said to somebody 'Why do you call me good ... only God is good' which seems to indicate that he did not think that his nature was identical to that of his God's.  Even if it was identical, I can't see that this would mean that Jesus was God.  I think more research is needed into the meaning of 'Elohim', it might give an indication why Joshua and Elohim are not identical.

On the contrary, what Jesus is saying in that past from the Gospel is that he is indeed God. Something like "You don't know who I am yet you call me good. Only God is good". In other words "I am God and you do not know it".

[jakswan]

So far, it looks as if Sass has the better argument, unless Jesus was schizoid and given to praying to himself as Elohim.

The problem is that Sass's argument actually contradicts Jesus' own teaching and the teaching of the Old Testament.  He wasn't schizoid or given to paying to himself; he was speaking to element of the Godhead that remained in heaven but whose nature he was 100% part of.

What's a Godhead?  I don't recall any words of Jesus saying that he was speaking to it.  He apparently said to somebody 'Why do you call me good ... only God is good' which seems to indicate that he did not think that his nature was identical to that of his God's.  Even if it was identical, I can't see that this would mean that Jesus was God.  I think more research is needed into the meaning of 'Elohim', it might give an indication why Joshua and Elohim are not identical.

On the contrary, what Jesus is saying in that past from the Gospel is that he is indeed God. Something like "You don't know who I am yet you call me good. Only God is good". In other words "I am God and you do not know it".

If the other words are better why didn't he use the words.