SNP. Why Are They Thriving?

[Jack Knave]

Well SNP amendment for FFA in Scotlahnd Bill fails. Tories voted  against , Labour abstained (having said they were against it previously. It appears that Dennis Skinner voted for, and possibly Edward Leigh from the Tories.

Amendment to ensure that Westminster could not just get rid of Scottish Parliament also voted down, though this time Labour voted with SNP, so jakswan' s belief at Cameron was going to be giving the SNP what they want is not panning out.

Dam, one day the SNP will cease wittering on about process and get stuck into policy. To get rid of Scotland we'll have to vote no in the EU referendum.

Go on, vote No to the EU and do Britain a favour.

[Nearly Sane]

Well SNP amendment for FFA in Scotlahnd Bill fails. Tories voted  against , Labour abstained (having said they were against it previously. It appears that Dennis Skinner voted for, and possibly Edward Leigh from the Tories.

Amendment to ensure that Westminster could not just get rid of Scottish Parliament also voted down, though this time Labour voted with SNP, so jakswan' s belief at Cameron was going to be giving the SNP what they want is not panning out.

Dam, one day the SNP will cease wittering on about process and get stuck into policy. To get rid of Scotland we'll have to vote no in the EU referendum.

Eh? How is putting in amendments and voting for FFA 'wittering in about process'

Or are you just being silly?

[jakswan]

Well SNP amendment for FFA in Scotlahnd Bill fails. Tories voted  against , Labour abstained (having said they were against it previously. It appears that Dennis Skinner voted for, and possibly Edward Leigh from the Tories.

Amendment to ensure that Westminster could not just get rid of Scottish Parliament also voted down, though this time Labour voted with SNP, so jakswan' s belief at Cameron was going to be giving the SNP what they want is not panning out.

Dam, one day the SNP will cease wittering on about process and get stuck into policy. To get rid of Scotland we'll have to vote no in the EU referendum.

Eh? How is putting in amendments and voting for FFA 'wittering in about process'

Or are you just being silly?

I don't know they are Scotland's politicians, that is how they come across to me, they are not accountable to me so my view is irrelevant. I think the people of UK / Scotland would all benefit if Scotland left the union.

[L.A.]

Well SNP amendment for FFA in Scotlahnd Bill fails. Tories voted  against , Labour abstained (having said they were against it previously. It appears that Dennis Skinner voted for, and possibly Edward Leigh from the Tories.

Amendment to ensure that Westminster could not just get rid of Scottish Parliament also voted down, though this time Labour voted with SNP, so jakswan' s belief at Cameron was going to be giving the SNP what they want is not panning out.

Dam, one day the SNP will cease wittering on about process and get stuck into policy. To get rid of Scotland we'll have to vote no in the EU referendum.

Eh? How is putting in amendments and voting for FFA 'wittering in about process'

Or are you just being silly?

I don't know they are Scotland's politicians, that is how they come across to me, they are not accountable to me so my view is irrelevant. I think the people of UK / Scotland would all benefit if Scotland left the union.

I think that the great irony of the SNP is that if they ever actually got (by one means or another) the kind of fiscal independence that they say they want - they would have to forget all their Left Wing stuff and become more Right Wing then the Tories in order to create a prosperous Scotland.

[Nearly Sane]

So today the youngest MP made their first speech

http://order-order.com/2015/07/14/mhairi-blacks-maiden-speech-in-full/

[Anchorman]

So today the youngest MP made their first speech

http://order-order.com/2015/07/14/mhairi-blacks-maiden-speech-in-full/

-
Yep. Mhairi was simply brilliant.

[BashfulAnthony]

Well, I applaud the SNP for putting a spanner in Cameron's works over his vicious fox-hunting Amendment, even though it may not have been for altruistic reasons, and only defers the question.

[Anchorman]

Well, I applaud the SNP for putting a spanner in Cameron's works over his fox-hunting Amendment, even though it may not have been for altruistic reasons, and only defers the question.

-
Actually, I'm not comfortable with SNP's action here.
Not because I'm in favour of fox hunting - I most certainly am not.
However, whatever Westminster decides re: fox hunting in E&W can have no impact on Scotland, where Holyrood decides the matter without interferance from London.
I realise WHY SNP acted as they did...but I'm not comfortable with thier actions in this instance.

[L.A.]

Well, I applaud the SNP for putting a spanner in Cameron's works over his fox-hunting Amendment, even though it may not have been for altruistic reasons, and only defers the question.

Actually, I'm not comfortable with SNP's action here.
Not because I'm in favour of fox hunting - I most certainly am not.
However, whatever Westminster decides re: fox hunting in E&W can have no impact on Scotland, where Holyrood decides the matter without interferance from London.
I realise WHY SNP acted as they did...but I'm not comfortable with thier actions in this instance.

I found myself wondering whether perhaps the whole foxhunting debacle might just have been a ploy to coax the SNP into a position where there are seen to be interfering in English affairs.

It certainly strengthens the argument for EVEL - did Nicola fall into the trap? 

[Nearly Sane]

Since in principle the SNP are not opposed to some form of EVEL, I don't see the gain, especially for a govt with a majority. What it has done is mean there will almost certainly be a tightening of the law in Scotland.

[L.A.]

Since in principle the SNP are not opposed to some form of EVEL, I don't see the gain, especially for a govt with a majority. What it has done is mean there will almost certainly be a tightening of the law in Scotland.

Whatever their motivation, the actions of the SNP seem to have have strengthened the case for EVEL.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/foxhunting/11739331/David-Cameron-must-strengthen-Evel-plans-to-stop-SNP-maintaining-ban-on-hunting-in-England.html

[Nearly Sane]

And again talking about the 'case for EVEL' is simplistic, it is the question of what form of EVEL. I don't see that it has strengthened the case for any particular type of EVEL.

[L.A.]

And again talking about the 'case for EVEL' is simplistic, it is the question of what form of EVEL. I don't see that it has strengthened the case for any particular type of EVEL.

I'd say that the fact that the SNP have declared that they are prepared to interfere in legislation that only affects England/Wales suddenly makes this an urgent matter.

[Nearly Sane]

More urgent than it was last week when it was being presented and then withdrawn? As already covered, the issue is what form of EVEL oil introduced. You might want to argue that it puts Cameron in a stronger position to say fuck off to any objections to any form of EVEL he wants to introduce but I given that he spent the entirety of the Scotland Bill telling them to fuck off, it does not seem to have been an issue before.

Further since already noted there is not a Base objection to some form of EVEL, I don't see what the gain is.

[L.A.]

More urgent than it was last week when it was being presented and then withdrawn? As already covered, the issue is what form of EVEL oil introduced. You might want to argue that it puts Cameron in a stronger position to say fuck off to any objections to any form of EVEL he wants to introduce but I given that he spent the entirety of the Scotland Bill telling them to fuck off, it does not seem to have been an issue before.

Further since already noted there is not a Base objection to some form of EVEL, I don't see what the gain is.

There was an unwritten rule that the Scots did not interfere in legislation that did not affect them. That has now been swept aside and it's quite clear to everyone that the EVEL debate needs to move on PDQ.

I'd say that that probably strengthens Cameron's position.

[Anchorman]

The only ideal solution (short of breaking the union) is an English parliament...but that ain't gonna happen - the Tories will do a patch up job as per usual.
EVEL is the least worse option, LA - few Scots would dispute that.
However the method of delivering EVEL - through amending HOC standing orders, rather than stand alone legislation, which would require very serious (and prolonged) scrutiny, is one of the main issues.
What kind of EVEL will this amendment deliver?
THere's EVEL and there's EVEL.
Even some Tories think Cameron's playing with fire and jepordising the union.
 

[L.A.]

The only ideal solution (short of breaking the union) is an English parliament...but that ain't gonna happen - the Tories will do a patch up job as per usual.
EVEL is the least worse option, LA - few Scots would dispute that.
However the method of delivering EVEL - through amending HOC standing orders, rather than stand alone legislation, which would require very serious (and prolonged) scrutiny, is one of the main issues.
What kind of EVEL will this amendment deliver?
THere's EVEL and there's EVEL.
Even some Tories think Cameron's playing with fire and jepordising the union.

My own view is that as there is very little support for an English parliament, so it's going to be some form of EVEL. My point is that the actions of the SNP put this question much nearer to the top of the agenda.

[Anchorman]

The wrangling then starts with whether the bill in question taken under the "English standing committee" has any consequentials for Scotland.
If there is any finance involved, it will have, and therefore excluding Scots (or Welsh) from the debate will cause ructions.
Since Cameron has already welshed on his promises to impliment hypocrite Brown's 'vow' made after the referendum, and the Westminster MPs have voted down amemdments to the Scotland Bill which would have meant that the Snith Commission report would have been enacted, the Barnet formula will remain - meaning that any changes in English laws affecting finance will affect Scotland.
That's the mess Cameron has created.

[L.A.]

The wrangling then starts with whether the bill in question taken under the "English standing committee" has any consequentials for Scotland.
If there is any finance involved, it will have, and therefore excluding Scots (or Welsh) from the debate will cause ructions.
Since Cameron has already welshed on his promises to impliment hypocrite Brown's 'vow' made after the referendum, and the Westminster MPs have voted down amemdments to the Scotland Bill which would have meant that the Snith Commission report would have been enacted, the Barnet formula will remain - meaning that any changes in English laws affecting finance will affect Scotland.
That's the mess Cameron has created.

With the increased urgency of this issue, I suspect that these details might now get glossed-over.

[Hope]

The wrangling then starts with whether the bill in question taken under the "English standing committee" has any consequentials for Scotland.
If there is any finance involved, it will have, and therefore excluding Scots (or Welsh) from the debate will cause ructions.
Since Cameron has already welshed on his promises to impliment hypocrite Brown's 'vow' made after the referendum, and the Westminster MPs have voted down amemdments to the Scotland Bill which would have meant that the Snith Commission report would have been enacted, the Barnet formula will remain - meaning that any changes in English laws affecting finance will affect Scotland.
That's the mess Cameron has created.

Is it a mess that Cameron has created, or is a mess that the British electorate have created, consequent to the election result?  I believe that Westminster MPs are allowed to vote down amendments even when they are tabled by the Government.  After all, my MP has to take as much notice of how a particular Bill will effect his constituents as how it will effect the populace as a whole.

[Anchorman]

So, Hope:
If English MPs persist in voting down amendments to the Scotland Bill - amendments which were agreed by the Smith commission, we are entitlred to wreck any legislation proposed in Westminster which doesn't affect us?
Fairy 'nuff!

[L.A.]

So, Hope:
If English MPs persist in voting down amendments to the Scotland Bill - amendments which were agreed by the Smith commission, we are entitlred to wreck any legislation proposed in Westminster which doesn't affect us?
Fairy 'nuff!

And if you start to 'wreck' English legislation, it's inevitable that EVEL will be implemented quicker and with minimal consideration of the interests of the Scots.

[BashfulAnthony]

Well, I applaud the SNP for putting a spanner in Cameron's works over his fox-hunting Amendment, even though it may not have been for altruistic reasons, and only defers the question.

Actually, I'm not comfortable with SNP's action here.
Not because I'm in favour of fox hunting - I most certainly am not.
However, whatever Westminster decides re: fox hunting in E&W can have no impact on Scotland, where Holyrood decides the matter without interferance from London.
I realise WHY SNP acted as they did...but I'm not comfortable with thier actions in this instance.

I found myself wondering whether perhaps the whole foxhunting debacle might just have been a ploy to coax the SNP into a position where there are seen to be interfering in English affairs.

It certainly strengthens the argument for EVEL - did Nicola fall into the trap? 

I doubt it.  Cameron was made to look foolish, and it surely upset his time-table.  However, I wouldn't be surprised at any kind of devious trick by Cameron and his advisers.

[L.A.]

Well, I applaud the SNP for putting a spanner in Cameron's works over his fox-hunting Amendment, even though it may not have been for altruistic reasons, and only defers the question.

Actually, I'm not comfortable with SNP's action here.
Not because I'm in favour of fox hunting - I most certainly am not.
However, whatever Westminster decides re: fox hunting in E&W can have no impact on Scotland, where Holyrood decides the matter without interferance from London.
I realise WHY SNP acted as they did...but I'm not comfortable with thier actions in this instance.

I found myself wondering whether perhaps the whole foxhunting debacle might just have been a ploy to coax the SNP into a position where there are seen to be interfering in English affairs.

It certainly strengthens the argument for EVEL - did Nicola fall into the trap? 

I doubt it.  Cameron was made to look foolish, and it surely upset his time-table.  However, I wouldn't be surprised at any kind of devious trick by Cameron and his advisers.

In the greater scheme of things - does it really matter? Sure, Cameron needed to make a gesture to a certain section of his party, but does Foxhunting have a major impact on the economy?

And the bonus is that there is now a really good reason to sort out those troublesome Scots and create an EVEL system that prevents anything like that happening again - because next time it might be something important.

[BashfulAnthony]

Well, I applaud the SNP for putting a spanner in Cameron's works over his fox-hunting Amendment, even though it may not have been for altruistic reasons, and only defers the question.

Actually, I'm not comfortable with SNP's action here.
Not because I'm in favour of fox hunting - I most certainly am not.
However, whatever Westminster decides re: fox hunting in E&W can have no impact on Scotland, where Holyrood decides the matter without interferance from London.
I realise WHY SNP acted as they did...but I'm not comfortable with thier actions in this instance.

I found myself wondering whether perhaps the whole foxhunting debacle might just have been a ploy to coax the SNP into a position where there are seen to be interfering in English affairs.

It certainly strengthens the argument for EVEL - did Nicola fall into the trap? 

I doubt it.  Cameron was made to look foolish, and it surely upset his time-table.  However, I wouldn't be surprised at any kind of devious trick by Cameron and his advisers.

In the greater scheme of things - does it really matter? Sure, Cameron needed to make a gesture to a certain section of his party, but does Foxhunting have a major impact on the economy?

And the bonus is that there is now a really good reason to sort out those troublesome Scots and create an EVEL system that prevents anything like that happening again - because next time it might be something important.

No, it doesn't particularly; but it is some sort of sacred right as far as the unctuous Tory's are concerned; and Cameron himself has been a keen hunter, all dressed up in pink, which happens to suit his complexion