Coronavirus

[Gordon]

Marina Hyde on BJ's recent performance.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/12/civic-duty-prime-minister-boris-johnson-coronavirus

[jeremyp]

When and how do you check after the PM makes an announcement at 7pm on a Sunday

You wait until Monday morning. Isn't that obvious?

an announcement that you have already admitted you made an assumption about because it wasn't clearly explained.

I agree he didn't say "this all starts on Wednesday". Perhaps he assumed we aren't morons that need to be led by the hand.

And yes it does say avoid public transport but that is just even more confusing for those who can't and who don't know if the public transport can deal with the demand, and where the govt has had no agreement with public transport that it can cover it.

There's nothing confusing about

So you should avoid public transport if at all possible

I've bolded part of it for the hard of comprehension. He didn't say "don't use public transport", he said "don't use public transport if at all possible". Clearly that means, if you can't avoid using public then you can use it.

Your posts where you declare your confusion illustrate why you are wrong.

I didn't claim confusion about the whole thing, I claimed a misunderstanding by me on one point. That particular point was completely cleared up by the document the government released the very next day.

[flower girl]

Comparing the UK's response to America's response, those in charge seem to be following the exact same playbook.  From what I can tell, both our leaders are working for those who have the most money.  Plain and simple.  Allowing the public to see the tallies increase on the number of cases and the number of deaths directly affects the deep pockets of this controlling interest, because it frightens people into wanting to stay home instead of getting out and working, shopping, eating out, etc... 

For about a week now, I've been documenting the daily tallies coming out of John's Hopkin's University and also looking at federal and state government sites to see how the numbers are trending in particular with regards to influenza and pneumonia (which here for some reason the two have always been grouped together.)  The CDC shows a surprisingly high spike in flu/pneumonia in April and May (which is the time when flu season is coming to a close.)  I then checked my state site (we are heavily GOP), and I saw where they stopped reporting pneumonia deaths in April and now only provided deaths as a result of flu only.  My guess is that the numbers of pneumonia were similarly spiking and they don't the public seeing how COVID19 cases and deaths are not being properly reported both in both the federal and state health sites.  I find it very disconcerting the effort that is being made here just erase what is actually happening. 

[jeremyp]

My impression is that people, here and elsewhere, including the opposition, have been bending over backwards to provide positive and constructive support for the govt. actions on the health crisis.

Yeah, that's bollocks mostly, with the exception of Het Majesty's opposition who have been pretty good IMO.

The damning criticisms of the government have little directly to do with failures in tackling the pandemic but concern the unforced errors due to the dishonesty and incompetence in the administration itself and communications with anyone outside Downing St.

And what are they?
   

The crisis can't be stopped unless people can trust the government. The PM needs to reassure us, the critics, that he and his team can be trusted or put together a team that can be.

There is a problem there that the government's record in the past is not stellar to say the least, but I try to judge their actions in this matter based on their performance in this matter and a lot of the criticism is based on what people want to believe about this government, not on what is true.

[Udayana]

Yeah, that's bollocks mostly, with the exception of Het Majesty's opposition who have been pretty good IMO.
And what are they?
   There is a problem there that the government's record in the past is not stellar to say the least, but I try to judge their actions in this matter based on their performance in this matter and a lot of the criticism is based on what people want to believe about this government, not on what is true.

Oh really? You can easily go through this thread and count up who has been supporting positive action taken up (eventually) by the government and who has been in denial throughout - about the threat of the disease and the actions that need to be taken, clinging to each bit of government kite flying.

[Udayana]

Whilst here... might be worth pointing out that:

The current fixation on the R number will not get us out of the crisis, they have just picked up on Angela Merkel's well received explanation and continued with it as an extension to the previous fluffery of watching the daily death figures.

What will determine whether we can actually loosen up on the lockdown and come out is whether or not the govt. have put in place working systems, procedures and applications to test, trace and isolate every case, and ensure vulnerable people are shielded from infection with proper support.  The whole point of the lockdown was to stop the NHS being overrun before such systems could be put in place.
 
They must know this but why not just be honest about what is needed? If they aren't in place we will have a long drawn out decline until a vaccine or cure is found and made available (assuming we can find them).

[Gordon]

Have to laugh at that prize goof Grant Schapps, who the other day was defending the new 'Stay Alert' slogan (for viewers in England that is) - he's just said on Radio 4:

If we see the R number go up again - particularly above one - we will have to take steps.

We all know what that means - it means going back to staying at home.

Maybe they shouldn't have rushed to change the slogan - and I do hope that members here who live in England and have to use public transport can keep themselves safe.

[Gordon]

John Crace eviscerating our useless PMs performance today.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/13/boris-johnson-resorts-to-bluster-under-keir-starmer-cross-examination

[flower girl]

Whilst here... might be worth pointing out that:

The current fixation on the R number will not get us out of the crisis, they have just picked up on Angela Merkel's well received explanation and continued with it as an extension to the previous fluffery of watching the daily death figures.

What will determine whether we can actually loosen up on the lockdown and come out is whether or not the govt. have put in place working systems, procedures and applications to test, trace and isolate every case, and ensure vulnerable people are shielded from infection with proper support.  The whole point of the lockdown was to stop the NHS being overrun before such systems could be put in place.

Yes, this!

[ad_orientem]

Whilst here... might be worth pointing out that:

The current fixation on the R number will not get us out of the crisis, they have just picked up on Angela Merkel's well received explanation and continued with it as an extension to the previous fluffery of watching the daily death figures.

What will determine whether we can actually loosen up on the lockdown and come out is whether or not the govt. have put in place working systems, procedures and applications to test, trace and isolate every case, and ensure vulnerable people are shielded from infection with proper support.  The whole point of the lockdown was to stop the NHS being overrun before such systems could be put in place.
 
They must know this but why not just be honest about what is needed? If they aren't in place we will have a long drawn out decline until a vaccine or cure is found and made available (assuming we can find them).

The R number is a good indicator of where we're at but as you say, without those other things it's of little use. I personally would like to have seen more enthusiasm for suffocating the virus. A few countries have gone that way but the vast majority haven't. Risk groups, it seems, won't be able to rejoin society for a long time. All that, we're all in this together, was just bollocks.

[Aruntraveller]

All that, we're all in this together, was just bollocks.

And it is repeated bollocks too.

Osborne used the same shtick over austerity.

[flower girl]

News out of Dublin, there's a study showing a correlation between vitamin D deficiency and the more serious COVID19 complications. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/nutrition/study-looks-at-the-relationship-between-vitamin-d-and-coronavirus/ar-BB144EpQ

[Robbie]

Couldn't open your link flowers but thes e are probably connected:-
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/new-research-links-vitamin-d-deficiency-with-covid-19-severity/ar-BB13TXEX?li=BBnbfcL

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/vitamin-d-could-play-role-in-lessening-risk-if-you-get-covid-19/ar-BB13ZFd0

Here in England over past few weeks we've all been encouraged to take vitamin D supplements which I've been doing religiously.

There's evidence that high doses of vit c are effective in combating the virus:-
https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-and-how-to-boost-the-immune-system-with-vitamins/a-53360766

https://www.healtheuropa.eu/vitamin-supplements-effective-for-fighting-covid-19/99573/

[flower girl]

Interesting, Robbie.  Your link is about a similar study here stateside (U of Illinois.)  Several years ago, my rheumatologist prescribed high doses of Vitamin D3 (along with a mild dose of K2) because my body kept producing Lupus antibodies that had not yet, thank God, gone on the attack.  But, I was obviously in a state of inflammation all the time.  Since then, several years of blood tests have revealed zero of these antibodies.  Have not had that in almost thirty years.  This makes sense re: COVID19, as we're learning most people die not from the ill effects of the virus but from our own immune systems going into overdrive and inadvertently killing off our own weakened cells.

It would be wonderful if the effort to understand and cure COVID19 would also benefit autoimmune diseases. 

[Nearly Sane]

I see trouble ahead....


https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/workforce/unions-warn-of-risk-to-future-workforce-if-public-sector-pay-freeze-is-enforced-14-05-2020/

[ippy]

Couldn't open your link flowers but thes e are probably connected:-
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/new-research-links-vitamin-d-deficiency-with-covid-19-severity/ar-BB13TXEX?li=BBnbfcL

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/vitamin-d-could-play-role-in-lessening-risk-if-you-get-covid-19/ar-BB13ZFd0

Here in England over past few weeks we've all been encouraged to take vitamin D supplements which I've been doing religiously.

There's evidence that high doses of vit c are effective in combating the virus:-
https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-and-how-to-boost-the-immune-system-with-vitamins/a-53360766

https://www.healtheuropa.eu/vitamin-supplements-effective-for-fighting-covid-19/99573/

We all have differing metabolic rates if you have a reasonably balanced diet you will gain the vitamins you need and any of the surplus will be excreted via the usual channels so if you try to up the rate of any particular vitamin the same rule will apply with most vitamins with some exceptions that can be over dosed on.

Like religion if a person is locked in to taking vitamins no one will convince them there's no real need to keep the purveyors of copious amounts of vitamins in business.

ippy. 

[Enki]

Have to laugh at that prize goof Grant Schapps, who the other day was defending the new 'Stay Alert' slogan (for viewers in England that is) - he's just said on Radio 4:

Maybe they shouldn't have rushed to change the slogan - and I do hope that members here who live in England and have to use public transport can keep themselves safe.

I am puzzled by your reason for quoting Grant Schapps in post 1881, Gordon.

I get it that you think that the government has started to relax lockdown too early.
I get it that you think Grant Schapps is a 'prize goof'.
I get it that you think that they 'rushed' to change the slogan.
I get it that you think the new slogan 'stay alert' isn't well thought out.

Given all that, how does your quote of what Grant Schapps said reinforce any of these opinions. or is there something else I'm missing?

For instance, when(I assume there will be a when) Nicola Sturgeon announces dates for relaxing the lockdown in Scotland, won't it be sensible for her to issue some sort of similar warning that if there is a major resurgence of the virus(e.g. R>1), then lockdown might be reimposed? I would have thought that any responsible government would issue words to that effect. Am I wrong?

[Gordon]

I am puzzled by your reason for quoting Grant Schapps in post 1881, Gordon.

I get it that you think that the government has started to relax lockdown too early.
I get it that you think Grant Schapps is a 'prize goof'.
I get it that you think that they 'rushed' to change the slogan.
I get it that you think the new slogan 'stay alert' isn't well thought out.

Given all that, how does your quote of what Grant Schapps said reinforce any of these opinions. or is there something else I'm missing?

For instance, when(I assume there will be a when) Nicola Sturgeon announces dates for relaxing the lockdown in Scotland, won't it be sensible for her to issue some sort of similar warning that if there is a major resurgence of the virus(e.g. R>1), then lockdown might be reimposed? I would have thought that any responsible government would issue words to that effect. Am I wrong?

Grant Schapps was trying to defend to brand new (and much criticised) slogan while acknowledging that they may have to revert to the old one - which seemed an odd admission when other Tories were coming out of the woodwork to defend Boris's wonderful new slogan (which he hadn't taken the trouble to run by the Scottish Government).

Nicola Sturgeon is, by contrast, more circumspect and less inclined to premature sloganising.

[Robbie]

Interesting, Robbie.  Your link is about a similar study here stateside (U of Illinois.)  Several years ago, my rheumatologist prescribed high doses of Vitamin D3 (along with a mild dose of K2) because my body kept producing Lupus antibodies that had not yet, thank God, gone on the attack.  But, I was obviously in a state of inflammation all the time.  Since then, several years of blood tests have revealed zero of these antibodies.  Have not had that in almost thirty years.  This makes sense re: COVID19, as we're learning most people die not from the ill effects of the virus but from our own immune systems going into overdrive and inadvertently killing off our own weakened cells.

It would be wonderful if the effort to understand and cure COVID19 would also benefit autoimmune diseases.

It sure would. There are cases now of severe inflammatory diseases occurring after positive Covid-19 tests, particularly noted in children. It's a serious state of affairs.

[Enki]

Grant Schapps was trying to defend to brand new (and much criticised) slogan while acknowledging that they may have to revert to the old one - which seemed an odd admission when other Tories were coming out of the woodwork to defend Boris's wonderful new slogan (which he hadn't taken the trouble to run by the Scottish Government).

Nicola Sturgeon is, by contrast, more circumspect and less inclined to premature sloganising.

I have no problem with the fact that this slogan has been criticised or that other Tories have supported it. I have no problem that you seem to think that it was too soon to relax the stay at home message. That wasn't the point of my query. In the context of who Grant Schapps, is(a member of the government), in the quote that you selected he simply seemed to be suggesting that if it is found that the R number goes up too far, then steps will be needed to rectify the situation, and lockdown will have to be encouraged again(I.E. staying at home). To me that seems eminently sensible. I believe the Scottish Government is suggesting something similar, maybe even harsher, that the lockdown may be repeatedly eased and reimposed, 'with little notice'.

[Gordon]

I have no problem with the fact that this slogan has been criticised or that other Tories have supported it. I have no problem that you seem to think that it was too soon to relax the stay at home message. That wasn't the point of my query. In the context of who Grant Schapps, is(a member of the government), in the quote that you selected he simply seemed to be suggesting that if it is found that the R number goes up too far, then steps will be needed to rectify the situation, and lockdown will have to be encouraged again(I.E. staying at home). To me that seems eminently sensible. I believe the Scottish Government is suggesting something similar, maybe even harsher, that the lockdown may be repeatedly eased and reimposed, 'with little notice'.

I thought it utterly laughable that so soon after Boris's shiny new slogan was unveiled, and all his fellow Toryphants were falling over themselves to say how sensible it was, that Schapps so easily countenanced reversal when the received wisdom, Tory-wise, seemed to be that the slogan change was an absolutely super idea - so super that they never really needed to consult our the likes of our First Minister, and so super that three of the four parts of the (dis)United Kingdom have so far refused to adopt it.

I don't have an issue regarding the possibility that lockdown measures may need to be varied should circumstances require it.   

[Enki]

I thought it utterly laughable that so soon after Boris's shiny new slogan was unveiled, and all his fellow Toryphants were falling over themselves to say how sensible it was, that Schapps so easily countenanced reversal when the received wisdom, Tory-wise, seemed to be that the slogan change was an absolutely super idea - so super that they never really needed to consult our the likes of our First Minister, and so super that three of the four parts of the (dis)United Kingdom have so far refused to adopt it.

I don't have an issue regarding the possibility that lockdown measures may need to be varied should circumstances require it.

I see nothing wrong in reversing the message if circumstances suggest that is the right thing to do(which is the message I got from Grant Scapps's statement). That doesn't in itself lead to the conclusion that the message must have been wrong in the first place. like all governments, they're on a learning curve with this virus. However I appreciate that you take a different view. Even though I found your responses unsatisfactory, thank you for taking the trouble to reply to my enquiries. Cheers.

[Aruntraveller]

A time line of the governments efforts:

https://appeasement.org/

[Gordon]

I see nothing wrong in reversing the message if circumstances suggest that is the right thing to do(which is the message I got from Grant Scapps's statement). That doesn't in itself lead to the conclusion that the message must have been wrong in the first place. like all governments, they're on a learning curve with this virus. However I appreciate that you take a different view. Even though I found your responses unsatisfactory, thank you for taking the trouble to reply to my enquiries. Cheers.

My main point, enki, isn't the message itself, or any need for revision, but the utter uselessness of this Tory government led, as it is, by a self-centred liar and populated, as it is, by a bunch of incompetent fuckwits.

[ad_orientem]

The head of our health agency today said in an interview that it looks like we might have smothered the virus in a matter of a couple weeks time. Some mixed messages have been given, but if true a good thing. Apparently the R number is under well under 1 and still moving towards zero.